Comments on: The 9x19mm NP (Netherlands Police) http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:19:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: aw http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-55286 aw Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:09:11 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-55286 The Action NP is a JHP bullet and because of the risk that the bullet may get stuck or hit anything in the barrel of a police weapon, the orange cap is on it. It may hit something, because the current weapon is the Walther P5, a gun that isn't being made for over 10 years, but finally they bought a new gun; Sig Sauer PPNL, a customized P250DCc. According to the current information, all the P5's will be replaced by the end of 2013. The Action NP is a JHP bullet and because of the risk that the bullet may get stuck or hit anything in the barrel of a police weapon, the orange cap is on it. It may hit something, because the current weapon is the Walther P5, a gun that isn’t being made for over 10 years, but finally they bought a new gun; Sig Sauer PPNL, a customized P250DCc. According to the current information, all the P5′s will be replaced by the end of 2013.

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]]> By: Eric Bell http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-49169 Eric Bell Fri, 10 Dec 2010 13:02:01 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-49169 Many different police departments as well as special military units in Europe use the most updated Action bullets, the Action 4 and the Action 5. The Action 4 is distinguished by a yellow tip and the Action 5 is distinguished by a black tip. Both bullets are made of a special ductile brass. The tips now compress back into the bullets instead of blowing out. Both are 95 gr. and go out about 430 mps. The Action 4 is designed to deliver about 70% of its energy to the target and the Action 5 is designed for maximum stopping power delivering 100% of its energy and expanding to 15mm. Many different police departments as well as special military units in Europe use the most updated Action bullets, the Action 4 and the Action 5. The Action 4 is distinguished by a yellow tip and the Action 5 is distinguished by a black tip. Both bullets are made of a special ductile brass. The tips now compress back into the bullets instead of blowing out. Both are 95 gr. and go out about 430 mps. The Action 4 is designed to deliver about 70% of its energy to the target and the Action 5 is designed for maximum stopping power delivering 100% of its energy and expanding to 15mm.

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]]> By: KEV http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-31377 KEV Thu, 22 Apr 2010 18:06:26 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-31377 The South African Police Service has been authorizing the' BAT concept bullet called the NGA SENTRY round for a few years now. 88 grains at over 1,300 fps. The stuff is LOUD and has low recoil. I use it in my CZ 2075 RAMI and also like the cookie cutter effect on practice targets. It does have a superb track record for stopping power in the various accounts I've read. Much better than the standard PMP ball ammo as issued and carried by most cops there. I don't know if it is still imported by Dan's Ammo or not. The South African Police Service has been authorizing the’
BAT concept bullet called the NGA SENTRY round for a few years now.

88 grains at over 1,300 fps.

The stuff is LOUD and has low recoil.

I use it in my CZ 2075 RAMI and also like the cookie cutter effect on practice targets.

It does have a superb track record for stopping power in the
various accounts I’ve read. Much better than the standard
PMP ball ammo as issued and carried by most cops there.

I don’t know if it is still imported by Dan’s Ammo or not.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-18314 Steve Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:52:51 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-18314 JohnD, thanks for the info. very interesting. JohnD, thanks for the info. very interesting.

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]]> By: JohnD http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-18313 JohnD Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:48:28 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-18313 The Geco Action 1 (BAT) round was favored by the CIA and other specialized agencies in the early 80's. It worked well with their ASP pistols. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg147-e.htm It has been reported that the agents liked the "cookie cutter" effect the bullet had on tires. Here's a link to a photo of an ad that was in a Soldier of Fortune magazine in 1983 http://i34.tinypic.com/2w6cdib.jpg A few years back Dynamit Nobel w/ Ruag brought a small supply of an updated Action 1 cartridge to the U.S. I discussed the round with reps at the SHOT show in Las Vegas. Because most L.E. departments and agencies in the U.S. now prefer .40 S&W or .45 ACP to 9mm, there was no potental for marketing the Action 1 in the U.S. I believe that RUAG discontinued the updated Action 1 shortly after the show when European anti-terrorist agencies opted for an Action cartridge variation that used a brass hollow point bullet instead of a copper alloy bullet. Here is a link to a photo of the most recent Action 1: http://i35.tinypic.com/avoawm.jpg The current DPX loads and Taurus HEX loads seem to be offshoots of the original Action 1 cartridges. Action 1 BAT has always been recognized of one of the best and most reliable specialty ammo loads. It was far ahead of its time in the performace ammo category. The Geco Action 1 (BAT) round was favored by the CIA and other specialized agencies in the early 80′s. It worked well with their ASP pistols. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg147-e.htm It has been reported that the agents liked the “cookie cutter” effect the bullet had on tires.

Here’s a link to a photo of an ad that was in a Soldier of Fortune magazine in 1983
http://i34.tinypic.com/2w6cdib.jpg

A few years back Dynamit Nobel w/ Ruag brought a small supply of an updated Action 1 cartridge to the U.S.
I discussed the round with reps at the SHOT show in Las Vegas. Because most L.E. departments and agencies in the U.S. now prefer .40 S&W or .45 ACP to 9mm, there
was no potental for marketing the Action 1 in the U.S. I believe that RUAG discontinued the updated Action 1 shortly after the show when European anti-terrorist agencies opted for an Action cartridge variation that used a brass hollow point bullet instead of a copper alloy bullet.
Here is a link to a photo of the most recent Action 1:
http://i35.tinypic.com/avoawm.jpg

The current DPX loads and Taurus HEX loads seem to be offshoots of the original Action 1 cartridges.

Action 1 BAT has always been recognized of one of the best and most reliable specialty ammo loads. It was far ahead of its time in the performace ammo category.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-16032 Steve Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:27:27 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-16032 Daniel, thanks for the link. Daniel, thanks for the link.

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-16019 Daniel E. Watters Mon, 12 Oct 2009 22:42:43 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-16019 Here is a German article on police ammunition including the RUAG/Geco and MEN offerings: http://www.pfa.nrw.de/PTI_Internet/pti-intern/PTI/Veroeffen/langer/PVT-01-05-Munition.pdf Here is a German article on police ammunition including the RUAG/Geco and MEN offerings:

http://www.pfa.nrw.de/PTI_Internet/pti-intern/PTI/Veroeffen/langer/PVT-01-05-Munition.pdf

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15969 Daniel E. Watters Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:24:48 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15969 Geco had nothing to do with the BAT marketing campaign. That was solely the work of the importer Phil Engeldrum. The BAT label was pasted over the the standard box, and served as a box seal. The label was thin enough that you could see the standard Geco markings under it. For those who never saw any of his magazines, Engeldrum was a very colorful character. Geco had nothing to do with the BAT marketing campaign. That was solely the work of the importer Phil Engeldrum. The BAT label was pasted over the the standard box, and served as a box seal. The label was thin enough that you could see the standard Geco markings under it.

For those who never saw any of his magazines, Engeldrum was a very colorful character.

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]]> By: Dave http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15955 Dave Mon, 12 Oct 2009 03:06:27 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15955 I suppose that "... Action Safety" is what the Netherlands Police want it to be known as, but I also remember the BAT. That marketing campaign made the Black Talon fiasco look like a Pulitzer Prize winner. I suppose that “… Action Safety” is what the Netherlands Police want it to be known as, but I also remember the BAT. That marketing campaign made the Black Talon fiasco look like a Pulitzer Prize winner.

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]]> By: uzim16 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15925 uzim16 Sun, 11 Oct 2009 00:52:10 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15925 Netherland is so famous for its chemical industry. isn't there ammo industry? Netherland is so famous for its chemical industry. isn’t there ammo industry?

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15876 Daniel E. Watters Fri, 09 Oct 2009 02:06:03 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15876 This is a patent for the original Geco Action Safety design: http://www.google.com/patents?id=00c7AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false This patent includes the original MEN Quick Defense design: http://www.google.com/patents?id=K7g6AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false The nose plug of the later Action Safety designs (Action 4, Action 5, and Action Effect) is indeed meant to assist expansion, as there is no longer a hole completely through the projectile. This appears to be the related patent: http://www.google.com/patents?id=6VcUAAAAEBAJ&printsec=description&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false This is a patent for the original Geco Action Safety design:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=00c7AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

This patent includes the original MEN Quick Defense design:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=K7g6AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The nose plug of the later Action Safety designs (Action 4, Action 5, and Action Effect) is indeed meant to assist expansion, as there is no longer a hole completely through the projectile. This appears to be the related patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=6VcUAAAAEBAJ&printsec=description&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15870 Steve Fri, 09 Oct 2009 01:16:42 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15870 Daniel, very interesting. thanks for the comment. Daniel, very interesting. thanks for the comment.

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15869 Daniel E. Watters Fri, 09 Oct 2009 01:13:11 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15869 Finding a modern handgun that is reliable with JHP isn't an issue now, but it was a rarity when the Action Safety and Quick Defense rounds were developed in the 1970s. Beyond all of the legacy handgun designs then in service, you have to remember that the ammunition was also intended to be used in SMG. With the Action Safety, the plastic plug actually blows out the front of the bullet when it is fired. If you look at the product sheets, you can see that there is a small hole drilled all the way through the bullet. The Quick Defense originally had a thin metal cap over the hollowpoint. The cap collapsed into the cavity when the bullet hit its target, but the cap was not substantial enough to effect expansion. The cap was later replaced by a ball, kind of like the current Pow'RBall. The QD2 variant is designed for limited expansion, kind of like the Action 3 and Action Effect. As for the light bullet weight, terminal ballistics theory of the 1960s and '70s worshiped high velocity and kinetic energy. Back in the US in those days, the hot ticket in 9x19mm was Super Vel 90gr JHP. For awhile, the Illinois State Police issued a 95gr JSP load from Federal Cartridge for their S&W Model 39. In a 1972 document, the ISP claimed that one of the reasons they adopted a 9x19mm pistol was that if they found the need for higher velocity, they could always rebarrel their pistols for .30 Luger! The ISP explained that the advantages of a lightweight, high velocity bullet were that it gave good penetration in barrier materials, yet limited penetration in flesh. The lightweight bullet would also slow down faster, giving a shorter maximum range. This would reduce the danger to bystanders further downrange. Finding a modern handgun that is reliable with JHP isn’t an issue now, but it was a rarity when the Action Safety and Quick Defense rounds were developed in the 1970s. Beyond all of the legacy handgun designs then in service, you have to remember that the ammunition was also intended to be used in SMG.

With the Action Safety, the plastic plug actually blows out the front of the bullet when it is fired. If you look at the product sheets, you can see that there is a small hole drilled all the way through the bullet. The Quick Defense originally had a thin metal cap over the hollowpoint. The cap collapsed into the cavity when the bullet hit its target, but the cap was not substantial enough to effect expansion. The cap was later replaced by a ball, kind of like the current Pow’RBall. The QD2 variant is designed for limited expansion, kind of like the Action 3 and Action Effect.

As for the light bullet weight, terminal ballistics theory of the 1960s and ’70s worshiped high velocity and kinetic energy. Back in the US in those days, the hot ticket in 9x19mm was Super Vel 90gr JHP. For awhile, the Illinois State Police issued a 95gr JSP load from Federal Cartridge for their S&W Model 39. In a 1972 document, the ISP claimed that one of the reasons they adopted a 9x19mm pistol was that if they found the need for higher velocity, they could always rebarrel their pistols for .30 Luger! The ISP explained that the advantages of a lightweight, high velocity bullet were that it gave good penetration in barrier materials, yet limited penetration in flesh. The lightweight bullet would also slow down faster, giving a shorter maximum range. This would reduce the danger to bystanders further downrange.

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]]> By: jody http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15852 jody Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:45:55 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15852 are you guys sure about the reason for the plastic? not to say i know anything about what the netherlands are trying to do with this handgun, but getting JHP to feed reliably in modern handguns is not a major problem. how do we not know the plastic is not there because the dutch are doing the same thing with their handgun bullets as american ammunition companies are doing with their bullets? one of the big questions in handgun bullets is: do hollowpoints still expand after they have punched through a few layers of clothing? or does the material get stuck in the hollowpoint, preventing it from expanding, and turning the expensive, advanced hollowpoint bullet into a high priced slug? these dutch bullets look exactly like cor-bon powerballs: http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/powrball.htm are you guys sure about the reason for the plastic? not to say i know anything about what the netherlands are trying to do with this handgun, but getting JHP to feed reliably in modern handguns is not a major problem.

how do we not know the plastic is not there because the dutch are doing the same thing with their handgun bullets as american ammunition companies are doing with their bullets?

one of the big questions in handgun bullets is: do hollowpoints still expand after they have punched through a few layers of clothing? or does the material get stuck in the hollowpoint, preventing it from expanding, and turning the expensive, advanced hollowpoint bullet into a high priced slug?

these dutch bullets look exactly like cor-bon powerballs:

http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/powrball.htm

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]]> By: Joe Schowalter http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15847 Joe Schowalter Thu, 08 Oct 2009 16:28:41 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15847 I assume the plastic cap will aid expansion, similar to Cor Bon's Pow'R Ball. There could be internal perforations in the bullet to help it mushroom. The solid copper bullet should stay together better in the target. That makes sense to me. What I don't understand is why the bullet is only 94 grains? That put's it in the .380 acp range. I assume the plastic cap will aid expansion, similar to Cor Bon’s Pow’R Ball. There could be internal perforations in the bullet to help it mushroom. The solid copper bullet should stay together better in the target. That makes sense to me. What I don’t understand is why the bullet is only 94 grains? That put’s it in the .380 acp range.

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15840 Daniel E. Watters Thu, 08 Oct 2009 13:09:29 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15840 The Action Safety round was developed by Geco (Gustav Genschow & Co.), an old German brand. It was part of the Dynamit Nobel family of ammunition manufacturers. The latter was ultimately acquired by the Swiss company RUAG. The Action Safety round was developed with the goal of providing an expanding bullet that would feed as reliably as FMJ in semi-auto and full-auto firearms. Up to the 1970s, few firearm manufacturers had ever considered the requirement to feed JSP or JHP ammunition in their designs. On the opposite side, most ammunition manufacturers still had not come up with a way to make reliably feeding and expanding JSP and JHP for self-loading firearms. Rounds that fed reliably often didn't expand, and rounds that expanded often didn't feed reliably. Another German ammunition manufacturer, Metallwerk Elisenhutte GmbH (MEN), came up with its own answer: the Quick Defense. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.elisenhuette.de/cms/cms/front_content.php%3Fidcat%3D7&ei=-uDNSoioI4TQsQOvx_SyDg&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result For those who love historical trivia, look up Dynamit Nobel AG and Alfred Nobel. The Action Safety round was developed by Geco (Gustav Genschow & Co.), an old German brand. It was part of the Dynamit Nobel family of ammunition manufacturers. The latter was ultimately acquired by the Swiss company RUAG.

The Action Safety round was developed with the goal of providing an expanding bullet that would feed as reliably as FMJ in semi-auto and full-auto firearms. Up to the 1970s, few firearm manufacturers had ever considered the requirement to feed JSP or JHP ammunition in their designs. On the opposite side, most ammunition manufacturers still had not come up with a way to make reliably feeding and expanding JSP and JHP for self-loading firearms. Rounds that fed reliably often didn’t expand, and rounds that expanded often didn’t feed reliably. Another German ammunition manufacturer, Metallwerk Elisenhutte GmbH (MEN), came up with its own answer: the Quick Defense.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.elisenhuette.de/cms/cms/front_content.php%3Fidcat%3D7&ei=-uDNSoioI4TQsQOvx_SyDg&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result

For those who love historical trivia, look up Dynamit Nobel AG and Alfred Nobel.

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]]> By: uzim16 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15808 uzim16 Wed, 07 Oct 2009 22:23:22 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15808 who's the maker? is it a dutch product? who’s the maker? is it a dutch product?

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15807 Daniel E. Watters Wed, 07 Oct 2009 21:38:34 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15807 I don't know if anyone in the US is importing their Swiss-P line for civilians. It was a bit of a surprise to me as well when I noticed .300 Whisper amongst their products. I don’t know if anyone in the US is importing their Swiss-P line for civilians. It was a bit of a surprise to me as well when I noticed .300 Whisper amongst their products.

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]]> By: Matt Groom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15802 Matt Groom Wed, 07 Oct 2009 21:14:04 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15802 1378 FPS out of a 3.9" barrel equals 396 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Not bad. 1378 FPS out of a 3.9″ barrel equals 396 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Not bad.

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]]> By: Carl http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/comment-page-1/#comment-15801 Carl Wed, 07 Oct 2009 21:11:01 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=8361#comment-15801 Daniel, very interesting info. In fact the same debate has been up here in Sweden: The cops want JHP but political correctness has stopped or delayed the transition. Anyway these look like fast bullets, over 400 m/s, with supposedly both some expansion and decent penetration vs car doors etc. http://www.ruag.com/de/Defence_Security/Amunition/PDF_Munition/9mm_Luger_Sintox_ACTION_4.pdf Daniel, very interesting info. In fact the same debate has been up here in Sweden: The cops want JHP but political correctness has stopped or delayed the transition.

Anyway these look like fast bullets, over 400 m/s, with supposedly both some expansion and decent penetration vs car doors etc.

http://www.ruag.com/de/Defence_Security/Amunition/PDF_Munition/9mm_Luger_Sintox_ACTION_4.pdf

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