Comments on: DSEi 09: PMP Neopup 20mm Personal Area Weapon

By: seryoga

seryoga — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:35:56 +0000

Sven, regarding your scenarios:
All your questions can equally apply to small bullets which don’t go thru walls and stones. Suppressive machine gun fire is just the waste of your ammo to scare enemy
Explosive hits next to the covering stone, to stems and ground behind.. all that is not perfect but it does work. 40 mm don’t seem much more effective. They are loosely placed and are actually less dangerous than machine gun fire in open terrain.

Watch the video. It’s the answer to all your questions: pretty precise shots penetrating light cover. But (again) killing pro soldiers is a very hard job..

By: hanz

hanz — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:40:30 +0000

thank u Sven Ortmann
yes , the word is LAVISH
no lavish fire here
do you think that a fully automatic version and a 30 round drum will do the job (despie the added weight)?

By: viper5552

viper5552 — Mon, 21 Sep 2009 02:14:22 +0000

after review of the brochure i conclude they intend to market this as a potential replacement for 40mm systems like the M203, in this role it has a greater effective range, but the effects on target is insufficient in my opinion and against infantry in the open a rifle is better. as for the suppression question it is not, in my opinion, better than any dedicated 40mm system on the market today.

By: mettandt

mettandt — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:31:58 +0000

There’s 20mm OICW type weapon available in market.

South Korean XK-11.

Bolt action rifle which is using 20mm airburst round.

They say that its round is little longer than XM-29’s so it makes more fragment enough to neutralize enemy.

Its fielding will begin late 09.

weight 6.1kg, someone who have seen this weapon said it well balanced so dosen’t feel heavy as it seen.

problem. it’s not combat proven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtGpWnLi45U

By: jody

jody — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 07:24:07 +0000

i fully and completely understand what denel is trying to do with this weapon. the point is that the idea is bad. that is why no other force fields an infantry device like this.

the US just literally shut down a 10 year project to develop the same idea. the US weapons were better than the denel weapons, and they still did not do anything that you would want.

By: Steve

Steve — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:48:03 +0000

Martin, actually they do make explosive 12 gauge ammunition! I saw a future weapons episode where they fired them full auto, it is probably on youtube if you search.

By: Martin

Martin — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:37:40 +0000

Steve, you’re right about it being compact compared to other semi-auto grenade launchers.

However, I have to agree with the others that find the NeoPup’s purpose to be a bit elusive. Sure, it’s a grenade launcher, but it’s tiny, relatively speaking. Honestly, how much explosive power can you pack into such a tiny warhead? Enough to cause an irritating flesh wound? Wouldn’t making explosive shells for a 3″ magnum 12ga be a better, more functional, and cheaper solution?

By: Steve

Steve — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 23:43:08 +0000

noname, it sure did.

By: Clodboy

Clodboy — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 21:28:35 +0000

I think what jody is getting at is that this gun may be the answer to a question nobody asked.

When people hear “grenade launcher”, the first question they ask is how big an explosion it will produce, not how long it takes for the projectile to reach its target.

Of course, from what I gather from the brochure, the weapon is basically proposing to fill a niche of its own: Long-range suppression. While a 20mm shell might not cause that much destruction, it sends a very clear psychological message. People in a combat zone may soon get desensitized to machine gun fire being sprayed in their general direction, but even a small explosion in front of their faces is bound to get their attention every time.

So yeah, maybe we’ll at some point be eating crow like the Russian brass who scoffed at Fedorov’s invention of the modern battle rifle, or we’ll see it get chucked onto the trash heap of failed OICW-clones.

By: noname

noname — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 13:54:11 +0000

Steve, I have not seen Lord of War.
Sounds like it featured inappropriate Booth Babes.

By: Steve

Steve — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 06:08:09 +0000

jody, it is a grenade launcher not a rifle. It delivers chemical energy to the target (high explosives), not kinetic energy (a bullet). speed and kinetic energy of the projectile do not matter.

By: jody

jody — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 06:06:11 +0000

what is the point of this thing. it sends a 20×42mm shell flying at 300 meters per second. that is a nearly useless combination of size and speed. there is a reason why no other military fields an infantry weapon like this.

By: Steve

Steve — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 02:10:21 +0000

noname, haha, you seen Lord of War?

By: noname

noname — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 01:45:24 +0000

Not real appropriate for these shows but more Booth Babes.

By: Fiftycal

Fiftycal — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:47:53 +0000

YEAH! 20 mm isn’t BIG enough, let’s go 25mm. Well, I say let’s go 50 MM!! That’ll show the bastards!

By: Steve

Steve — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:03:43 +0000

Martin, it is compact compared to other semi-automatic grenade launchers. Remember, it is not a rifle.

By: Steve

Steve — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:01:23 +0000

Emptormaven, I don’t think so.

By: Overload in CO

Overload in CO — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:45:48 +0000

Doesn’t look very lefty friendly

By: Sven Ortmann

Sven Ortmann — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:05:09 +0000

I know this thing and that it’s not air burst. The lack of air burst actually decreases the likeliness to hit anything even though it leads to a smaller/cheaper fuze and therefore potentially larger warhead.

Scenario: combat in forest
What do you shoot at to set off the fuze close tot he enemy? The tree stems?

Scenario: Urban combat, enemy in a room in house on other side of street.
What do you shoot at? Does it penetrate the wall? Hitting the room’s back wall through the window won’t help at that warhead size.

Scenario: Combat in open field.
Again, what to shoot at?

Scenario: Fighting uphill.
What to shoot at? Attempt to hit the ground next to the stone where an enemy took cover?

Scenario: Enemy behind wall at 150m.
An chance to punch through the wall? There’s nothing else to aim at.

By: Clodboy

Clodboy — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:27:49 +0000

They should probably extend that list of possible applications with:
“Riot scenarios involving extraterrestrial 10-foot-tall bipedal fighting vehicles”

Seriously though, there is a promotional video of it on Youtube, showing the effects of the different ammo types and perhaps giving a better impression of the unconventional “offset pistolgrip”-ergonomics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu87AxzBf3Y

By: Mu

Mu — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:53:34 +0000

It has to be called an “area effect” weapon do to the prohibition of exploding rounds and rounds over .50 to target individual soldiers. Their brochure is therefore also heavy on “suppression” and other applications not targeting individuals.

By: 1 With A Bullet

1 With A Bullet — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:06:34 +0000

‘Personal Area’ Weapon? Heh. Wasn’t there one of those in ‘From Dusk Til Dawn’?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jts0xxg7P8I

By: Martin

Martin — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:38:43 +0000

The way they describe this weapon as ‘compact’ is completely misleading. Since you only see photos of it from the side, it certainly appears true. However, the view from above, with the side mounted grip and semi-helical magazine show a very awkward gun. Basically, it won’t fit into any space you would normally use to hold a weapon. About the only advantage to the side-by-side setup is you could be a little more prone on a flat surface. The magazine is undoubtedly more expensive than a simple box. The bizzare side grip is right hand only, with a left hand only magazine. And let’s not forget the extra manufacturing costs associated with those peculiar tidbits.

I’d imagine it’s unusual configuration is what is limiting it’s adoption by anyone. If they would simply use a standard grip and box magazine, there would be a lot more interest.

By: Emptormaven

Emptormaven — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:45:04 +0000

Side-mounted pistol grip — that sounds like an interesting way of getting similar length and balance improvements to a bull-pup configuration. Any other weapons use this?

By: Jeff M

Jeff M — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:34:29 +0000

I think they could drop a as-of-yet- undeveloped thermobaric charge into the rounds to make them as effective as their larger counterpart. I think the reason they don’t is the backlash when one guy with one of these accidentally kills 100 civilians because he wasn’t the right guy to be utilizing such powerful “small arms”.

By: Steve

Steve — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:48:28 +0000

Sven, it is quite a different concept to the OICW idea. It is not air burst, it is direct fire and there is quite a range of different ammunition available.

Have a read of this document:

http://www.pmp.co.za/images/Neopup_PAW_brochure08.pdf

By: Sven Ortmann

Sven Ortmann — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:39:14 +0000

“area” is a bit of exaggeration. The same calibre was rejected (despite air burst fuze) in the OICW/XM-29 project. The rumoured reason was a lack of punch (the development proceeded with 25mm).

The ability to project many shells to achieve an “area” effect doesn’t exist either. The weight limits (it’s a man-portable system, after all) and mag capacity don’t allow for a lavish use of its firepower.

“area” effect may be technically acceptable, but it’s misleading in this case.

Btw, it would be interesting to learn what exactly the projectile can do. What does it to soft vehicles, windows, doors, walls? Info about the quantity of fragments, their weight & velocity and most important pattern?
Can the Neopup use HEI-frag ammo as is used in 20mm gatlings?

How does the hole thing sound? Does it have a more powerful psychological effect than an assault rifle?

By: Robb Allen

Robb Allen — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:23:40 +0000

No… seriously. Get off my lawn.