Comments on: The Bronze 1911 pistol http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:12:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mu http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14489 Mu Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:40:46 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14489 On the misconception "plastic is plastic", there are now composites out there that can take temperatures over 300C, stronger and lighter than the best steel or aluminum alloys. We make rocket cases from it. Now, the $500/lb price is still a downer, but don't compare today's high tech polymers with your plastic trash bag or bakelite. On the misconception “plastic is plastic”, there are now composites out there that can take temperatures over 300C, stronger and lighter than the best steel or aluminum alloys. We make rocket cases from it.
Now, the $500/lb price is still a downer, but don’t compare today’s high tech polymers with your plastic trash bag or bakelite.

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]]> By: thebronze http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14379 thebronze Sun, 13 Sep 2009 23:07:26 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14379 You rang? You rang?

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]]> By: Ken http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14373 Ken Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:13:15 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14373 From a curiosity standpoint the gun looks different. But there is a reason we are not in the bronze age anymore. "Bronze" and "die cast" in the construction doesn't sound too durable to me. Being a machinist of 16 years bronze and its variants are easy to machine versus a steel. Under no circumstance as a designer of firearms myself would I incorporate bronze in any part of my work. From a curiosity standpoint the gun looks different. But there is a reason we are not in the bronze age anymore. “Bronze” and “die cast” in the construction doesn’t sound too durable to me. Being a machinist of 16 years bronze and its variants are easy to machine versus a steel. Under no circumstance as a designer of firearms myself would I incorporate bronze in any part of my work.

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]]> By: Komrad http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14342 Komrad Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:03:33 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14342 @matt I was comparing it to a rifle which is why I said SEMI-concealable. @jason The only knowledge I have of silicon is solar grade which is very expensive. Thank you for correcting me. @matt
I was comparing it to a rifle which is why I said SEMI-concealable.
@jason
The only knowledge I have of silicon is solar grade which is very expensive. Thank you for correcting me.

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]]> By: Jason Smith http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14338 Jason Smith Sat, 12 Sep 2009 02:25:17 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14338 Komrad, The link has already been posted. Matt & Komrad, One thing you are leaving out is that the purpose of the Brastil gun was NOT because the materials were cheaper, but rather that they were able to be DIECAST (as opposed to forged) for almost as much durability but at much lower production costs. The hope was that the increase in material cost would be overcome by the cheaper production costs. I'm not up on my 1932 material or production costs, but apparently the test was TECHNICALLY feasible, while it may or may not have been ECONOMICALLY feasible. Without more details, we will likely never know why this was not pursued at the time. Komrad,

The link has already been posted.

Matt & Komrad,

One thing you are leaving out is that the purpose of the Brastil gun was NOT because the materials were cheaper, but rather that they were able to be DIECAST (as opposed to forged) for almost as much durability but at much lower production costs. The hope was that the increase in material cost would be overcome by the cheaper production costs.

I’m not up on my 1932 material or production costs, but apparently the test was TECHNICALLY feasible, while it may or may not have been ECONOMICALLY feasible. Without more details, we will likely never know why this was not pursued at the time.

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]]> By: Matt Groom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14336 Matt Groom Sat, 12 Sep 2009 00:41:30 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14336 @ Nick, High quality plastic is still plastic. @ Komrad, The Five-Seven is NOT semi-concealable, unless you compare it to a rifle. It is a full sized service pistol and easily bigger than my Beretta, although it weighs less. We have one at work and I have shot it extensively. It is not uncomfortable or ungainly in the hand, although I dislike the rounded magazine plate which makes accurate shooting from a bench quite difficult. It is also very light weight, but the price and the construction make it a loser in my book. If it was a $400-$500 pistol, I might consider buying one, but the $1K price tag sends it right into the rediculous catergory. A major ammuniton manufacturer, Fiocchi, loads all the 5.7x28mm that FN sells to the general public. Nobody else loads it, because nobody wants it. Nobody else makes guns for it, because it is an akwardly long and poor performing cartridge in it's non-military format. Fiocchi loads their ammo very hot and with very good quality; they're one of the largest ammo makers in the world. Silicon is purified sand, and it is not more expensive than Iron and certainly not more so than most grades of Steel. Copper is more expensive than both. Aluminum used to be more expensive than all of them, but the price of Aluminum has been lowered dramatically with the advent of Nuclear power, so Copper is the most expensive. Also, Brastil would be very heavy compared to something made with an Aluminum or Plastic frame. @ Nick,
High quality plastic is still plastic.

@ Komrad,
The Five-Seven is NOT semi-concealable, unless you compare it to a rifle. It is a full sized service pistol and easily bigger than my Beretta, although it weighs less. We have one at work and I have shot it extensively. It is not uncomfortable or ungainly in the hand, although I dislike the rounded magazine plate which makes accurate shooting from a bench quite difficult. It is also very light weight, but the price and the construction make it a loser in my book. If it was a $400-$500 pistol, I might consider buying one, but the $1K price tag sends it right into the rediculous catergory.

A major ammuniton manufacturer, Fiocchi, loads all the 5.7x28mm that FN sells to the general public. Nobody else loads it, because nobody wants it. Nobody else makes guns for it, because it is an akwardly long and poor performing cartridge in it’s non-military format. Fiocchi loads their ammo very hot and with very good quality; they’re one of the largest ammo makers in the world.

Silicon is purified sand, and it is not more expensive than Iron and certainly not more so than most grades of Steel. Copper is more expensive than both. Aluminum used to be more expensive than all of them, but the price of Aluminum has been lowered dramatically with the advent of Nuclear power, so Copper is the most expensive. Also, Brastil would be very heavy compared to something made with an Aluminum or Plastic frame.

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]]> By: Komrad http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14332 Komrad Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:53:42 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14332 Here is the address for the chart. You will have to download it as a PDF. www.aimehq.org/search/docs/Volume%20137/137-33.pdf Here is the address for the chart. You will have to download it as a PDF. http://www.aimehq.org/search/docs/Volume%20137/137-33.pdf

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]]> By: Komrad http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14331 Komrad Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:51:56 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14331 FN Five seveNs are a new concept with a currently small market. A semi-concealable weapon that can get through body armor is not a bad idea. If any major ammunition manufacturer made 5.7mm ammo, FN would expand their line and other companies might start making 5.7mm weapons. The price would come down too. As for this brastil. It has a 85,000-95,00 pound tensile strength, and a yield strength of 65,00 to 70,000 pounds. I have no idea what that means but compared to the other brasses on the chart, that is pretty impressive. It contains 80-81.5% copper, 13.5-16% zinc, and 3.75-4.25% silicon. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, silicon is more expensive that steel and maybe more expensive that copper and is certainly more expensive than aluminum, doesn't that make it ill suited to mass production. Maybe a few parts could be made from brastil but to mass produce something like a 1911 for a conflict as big as WWII made from a silicon bass is just unfeasible. FN Five seveNs are a new concept with a currently small market. A semi-concealable weapon that can get through body armor is not a bad idea. If any major ammunition manufacturer made 5.7mm ammo, FN would expand their line and other companies might start making 5.7mm weapons. The price would come down too. As for this brastil. It has a 85,000-95,00 pound tensile strength, and a yield strength of 65,00 to 70,000 pounds. I have no idea what that means but compared to the other brasses on the chart, that is pretty impressive. It contains 80-81.5% copper, 13.5-16% zinc, and 3.75-4.25% silicon. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, silicon is more expensive that steel and maybe more expensive that copper and is certainly more expensive than aluminum, doesn’t that make it ill suited to mass production. Maybe a few parts could be made from brastil but to mass produce something like a 1911 for a conflict as big as WWII made from a silicon bass is just unfeasible.

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]]> By: Nick http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14321 Nick Fri, 11 Sep 2009 14:09:48 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14321 Whoa. Let's not compare the plastic of a Five-seveN to a Hi-Point. I've seen both (and owned one). The Five-seveN's plastic quality is far superior. Whoa.

Let’s not compare the plastic of a Five-seveN to a Hi-Point.

I’ve seen both (and owned one). The Five-seveN’s plastic quality is far superior.

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]]> By: Matt Groom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14311 Matt Groom Fri, 11 Sep 2009 02:21:51 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14311 @ anon The Kel-Tec SU-16 is made on a polymer upper and lower. So are most modern H&Ks. The Carbon-15 has a polymer upper and lower. Carbon fiber is the glass content of the plastic, but it's still plastic. Cavalry Arms has their famous CAV-15 lowers too. I can't think of any other uppers. As for "...polymer slides with molded in breech blocks" the closest thing to that is the uber-expensive FN Five Seven that has been featured in a number of posts here on the Firearms Blog. Stamped sheet metal slide with a polymer cover on top. It's ugly plastic like a High Point, cheaply constructed like a RG, and expensive as hell like a Hammerli. @ anon

The Kel-Tec SU-16 is made on a polymer upper and lower. So are most modern H&Ks. The Carbon-15 has a polymer upper and lower. Carbon fiber is the glass content of the plastic, but it’s still plastic. Cavalry Arms has their famous CAV-15 lowers too. I can’t think of any other uppers.

As for “…polymer slides with molded in breech blocks” the closest thing to that is the uber-expensive FN Five Seven that has been featured in a number of posts here on the Firearms Blog. Stamped sheet metal slide with a polymer cover on top. It’s ugly plastic like a High Point, cheaply constructed like a RG, and expensive as hell like a Hammerli.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14310 Steve Fri, 11 Sep 2009 02:01:01 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14310 Jason, great find! I tried to use google to find it out but was unsuccessful. Jason, great find! I tried to use google to find it out but was unsuccessful.

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]]> By: Vitor http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14308 Vitor Fri, 11 Sep 2009 01:41:53 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14308 Spartans liked bronze. Spartans liked bronze.

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]]> By: Jason Smith http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14306 Jason Smith Fri, 11 Sep 2009 01:07:56 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14306 From what little research I could do with google, "Brastil" is a trade name for a particular Copper-Zinc-Silicon alloy made by Doehler Die Casting Co. and is similar to Webert Alloy by American Brass Co., and Tombasil Alloy from Ajax Metal Co. http://www.aimehq.org/search/docs/Volume%20137/137-33.pdf From what little research I could do with google, “Brastil” is a trade name for a particular Copper-Zinc-Silicon alloy made by Doehler Die Casting Co. and is similar to Webert Alloy by American Brass Co., and Tombasil Alloy from Ajax Metal Co.

http://www.aimehq.org/search/docs/Volume%20137/137-33.pdf

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]]> By: Komrad http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14300 Komrad Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:09:50 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14300 When society collapses bronze will be easier to make than steel. Plans for molds and the exact tin/copper ratio would make a post-apocalyptic society a wee bit safer for me and my hoard of mutants. When society collapses bronze will be easier to make than steel. Plans for molds and the exact tin/copper ratio would make a post-apocalyptic society a wee bit safer for me and my hoard of mutants.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14297 Steve Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:57:35 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14297 Colin, I would appreciate that. Colin, I would appreciate that.

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]]> By: Matt Groom http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14292 Matt Groom Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:35:02 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14292 That is a truly amazing and fascinating thing. I read in the standard catalog of Smith and Wesson that S&W actually made aluminum framed N-frames BEFORE WWII. If they had made an 8-shot Aluminum N-frame in .38/.44 or .357 Magnum in 1946, it seems likely to me that revolvers would have remained in the hands of Law Enforcement in the US for at least another decade. Colt apparently developed the Colt Commander 1911 with an Aluminum frame between 1949-1951 in anticipation that the military would want a lighter pistol in the future. It was built in 9mm in anticipation that the newly formed NATO would adopt that caliber as standard. It's interesting to imagine that 9mm Colt Commanders could have seen service in the US military during the Korean War. That is a truly amazing and fascinating thing. I read in the standard catalog of Smith and Wesson that S&W actually made aluminum framed N-frames BEFORE WWII. If they had made an 8-shot Aluminum N-frame in .38/.44 or .357 Magnum in 1946, it seems likely to me that revolvers would have remained in the hands of Law Enforcement in the US for at least another decade.

Colt apparently developed the Colt Commander 1911 with an Aluminum frame between 1949-1951 in anticipation that the military would want a lighter pistol in the future. It was built in 9mm in anticipation that the newly formed NATO would adopt that caliber as standard. It’s interesting to imagine that 9mm Colt Commanders could have seen service in the US military during the Korean War.

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]]> By: anon http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14278 anon Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:22:08 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14278 We've moved past bronze to plastic (oops, I mean polymer). It's cheaper and easier to work with. The question is: When do we get polymer uppers? Or maybe the question is: when do we get polymer slides with molded in steel breech blocks? Actually, I'm kinda surprised that the techniques used for the Nylon 66 aren't the norm for 22's. We’ve moved past bronze to plastic (oops, I mean polymer). It’s cheaper and easier to work with.

The question is: When do we get polymer uppers?

Or maybe the question is: when do we get polymer slides with molded in steel breech blocks?

Actually, I’m kinda surprised that the techniques used for the Nylon 66 aren’t the norm for 22′s.

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]]> By: Colin http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14275 Colin Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:23:49 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14275 I'll send you some more photos of Springfield Armory when I go home. There is alot of ridiculous fireams there. Rifle struck by lightning Rifle with bullet in barrel Rifle with a stock gnawed to hell by a porqupine. One of my fav there is a M-14 that Eisenhowser was suppose to get, but it had a slight flaw and was rejected! I’ll send you some more photos of Springfield Armory when I go home. There is alot of ridiculous fireams there.

Rifle struck by lightning
Rifle with bullet in barrel
Rifle with a stock gnawed to hell by a porqupine.

One of my fav there is a M-14 that Eisenhowser was suppose to get, but it had a slight flaw and was rejected!

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]]> By: Nick Pacific http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14274 Nick Pacific Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:56:30 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14274 I've been burned one too many times on one offs and prototypical gadgetude. Let someone else be the first to commission that. Of course then my girlfriend will beg for one with a mirror polish. Either way my wallet is going to lose. I’ve been burned one too many times on one offs and prototypical gadgetude. Let someone else be the first to commission that.
Of course then my girlfriend will beg for one with a mirror polish. Either way my wallet is going to lose.

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]]> By: B Woodman http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/10/the-bronze-1911-pistol/comment-page-1/#comment-14271 B Woodman Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:42:49 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7707#comment-14271 Any advantages to bronze over steel? Or was this just an experiment to see "if it could be done"? Interesting. . . . Any advantages to bronze over steel? Or was this just an experiment to see “if it could be done”? Interesting. . . .

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