Hey look, I purchased a .327 (because I’m “eccentric”) but frankly I’m uncomfortable using full powered ammo in it in my sub-division so I stocked .32 mags and even some .32 long hollowpoints (damn neighbors have been feeding foxes – so now I have to carry my gun while gardening or sitting around the backyard in the evening) so I’m with you in theory. But this is a lot of vinegar in an issue that needs more honey if you know what I mean.

That said – I do in fact love my .410 (survivor) but I also love my 20ga coach gun. I’d never use the coach as a go to for a bump in the night but I don’t begrudge any man or woman their choices. I would probably sue the hell out of someone who accidentally shot me though.

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Your comments are typical of Internet trolls and you have no idea what you are talking about. I have owned and fired every size shotgun there is from the 10 gauge all the way down to the .410 bore. My recommendations are for those living in the city with close neighbors, a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot is insanity in a crowded urban environment.

The fact is that is you accidentally shoot your neighbors you are criminally and civilly liable for it no matter how good your intentions were. If you don’t know that then you are terribly misinformed.

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CaneFu Sez: “Because the larger gauge simply isn’t necessary”

Conclusion: CaneFu does not realize that a 20 or 16 gauge fires a smaller diameter load than a 12 gauge.

CaneFu Sez: “You’ll also end up spending the rest of your life in prison for accidentally shooting innocent people.”

Conclusion: False. If you are reasonably defending yourself (and not putting the barrel up against the wall of your neighbor) you will not be spending the rest of you life in prison. If anyone has concerns checking with a lawyer is a good part of home defense planning.

CaneFu Sez: “30+ years law enforcement experience”

Conclusion: I’m not sure what that means, but we know what it does not mean based on his comments, he is not a lawyer and most likely has never shot a gun before. If he was in law enforcement he was a file clerk somewhere.

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It is true that you will read many comments from the self-proclaimed “experts” posting online that believe only in using the biggest baddest weapon out there to for home defense but they put zero thought into the legal aftermath as soon as they pull the trigger on their bazooka. If you live alone out in the country somewhere with no neighbors for miles then you can use anything you want for home defense – setup a .50 caliber machine gun nest on your roof if you like. But for those of us in the city, even small caliber firearms are pushing the limits of safety for innocent neighbors.

Imagine YOURSELF in this situation – one night a shotgun blast comes through the wall of your home and maims or even kills one of your children…your inconsiderate neighbor fired at a burglar with his 12 gauge shotgun and missed. Are you going to insist on pressing charges on the thoughtless bastard???

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Because the larger gauge simply isn’t necessary – dead is dead. The idea here is to have all the stopping power you need at close range while limiting over-penetration, noise, and recoil AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. I guarantee that one or two close-range hits from my .410 will stop anything human – remember it has ballistics better than a .41 magnum. I am very familiar with Box of Truth but I have done my own tests and penetration can vary with the type of sheet rock, velocity of shell load, etc. and there is no way to test your neighbors home construction in advance. Check out this video on YouTube…a blast like this from a 12 gauge loaded with bird-shot has a real chance of hitting your neighbors across the street:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc

Remember, just one pellet hitting your neighbor’s child will likely result in prison time for you and/or an expensive lawsuit, no matter what the other circumstances were.

My .410 is also not nearly as noisy as my 12 gauge and I enjoy listening to music and having conversations too much to spend the rest of my life in total deafness just because some moron decided to break into my house.

Everyone is into overkill this days and I blame movies and TV for that – at the very least the movie hero has to blow body parts off of people to get the job done. Hollywood also shows the police patting the shooter on the back and congratulating him for killing the bad guy – but that isn’t reality. It is just as important to defend yourself from the legal system as it is the bad guy, MAYBE MORE SO. In fact, shoot your neighbors by accident and they will see YOU as the bad guy, not the burglar that broke into your house.

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I’m also not sure 12 ga with birdhshot is really tat much more dangerous to neighbors than a .410 in terms of wild shooting – more payload but penetration through drywall aren’t so different are they? The oft sited Box of Truth claims they’ve fired 12 ga birdshot through drywall and it was stopped by the paper backing of the second sheet – meaning it wouldn’t have hit anyone in the next room.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

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The total length of my shotgun is only 28 inches, perfectly legal, but easily maneuvers through doorways and around corners. I can point with either the right or left hand leading and shoot with equal accuracy with each at such short distances. The recoil on the .410 is next to nothing so the pistol grips handle it just fine.

I put together this double pistol configuration more than 25 years ago when you just couldn’t find such a thing in gun stores. I’m glad to see that pictures on the internet of such a setup are now quite common. Traditional full stock configurations on shotguns are fine for hunting and skeet shooting but are simply too long for indoor home defense situations. Like I said earlier, people don’t live in castles anymore and the average home requires a short and maneuverable weapon to be effective.

Incidentally the ballistics of my .410 shotgun loaded with bird-shot are better than that of a .41 magnum handgun at close range – anyone that says that isn’t a man-stopper is terribly misinformed.

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Your choice of weapons and ammo for HOME DEFENSE if living in the city shouldn’t be the same as your choice for WAR. There needs to be a balance with what will reliably stop an intruder and protect the innocents from friendly fire….otherwise why not just use a .50 caliber machine gun or bazooka if going purely for maximum killing power?!? You do not get the luxury of allowing for collateral damage like presidents do when bombing foreign countries – even putting just one pellet into your neighbor’s living room wall without actually hitting a person can get you serious prison time.

Home defense is just as much about keeping yourself out of jail as it is defending your family against a home invader. If you go off to prison for the next 20-30 years for accidentally killing your neighbor with 00 buckshot, you have failed to defend your family even if you nailed the bad guy because your loved ones will lose their husband, father, provider, and home.

As a retired police officer and current firearms instructor I have witnessed numerous crime scenes and done extensive ballistics testing with various firearms and ammunition. The RESULTS and FACTS are below, NOT conjecture:

1) 00 buckshot will not only penetrate your home’s walls but your next TWO neighbor’s homes as well in the city.
2) Most home defense shoots are between 2 and 10 feet and almost NEVER farther than 10 feet. People don’t live in castles and the average house makes for very close shooting.
3) Firing a 12 gauge shotgun inside a house will likely cause permanent hearing loss for the shooter AND family members. Do you really want to deafen your wife and kids as well yourself?
4) A 12 gauge shotgun is OVERKILL for home defense – that much power simply isn’t needed.
5) Insanely aggressive drug addicts fall down like bowling pins when shot in the chest even with small calibers because they are in poor health and their racing heartbeats make them especially susceptible to hydrostatic shock.
6) Bird-shot at close range from a .410 shotgun is devastating and has PLENTY of penetration to drop anything human and even most larger animals including deer. The advantage of bird-shot is that it will lose momentum after several yards so it doesn’t penetrate your neighbor’s house.
7) People that accidentally shoot bullets or shotgun pellets into their neighbor’s house usually go to prison, even if they DON’T hit anyone. They also lose lifetime privileges of ever owning or using a firearm again.

My personal choice for home defense, living in the city, is a .410 pump shotgun, 18″ barrel, with double pistol grips. It is lightweight, short, maneuverable, little recoil, points well, and while loud will not permanently deafen me or my family like a 12 gauge would if fired inside my house. I load it with ordinary #9 bird-shot and am confident it will stop an army of drug-crazed home invaders at close range without endangering my neighbors. Anyone that says you need more than this for home defense simply doesn’t know what they are talking about.

- Cane
30+ years law enforcement experience
Firearms instructor, also responsible for police department ballistics testing
Lifetime hunter
Avid self defense enthusiast
Gun collecting and shooting enthusiast

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But yeah, tungsten is exceptionally dense compared to lead-iirc it’s been used as the material for the penetrator rod in sabot rounds for tanks before.

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It sounds like Wildcat43 tested these pretty well. I can accept that the tungsten makes this a very different animal.

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We shot the same target again using bird shot and even though the disbursement was greater, very few of the pellets actually penetrated the vinyl cover.

Any doubts I had in regards to these shells being good for home defense have been put to rest.

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