Here in SC I have a deep larder of slugs and buck. If I moved back to the North East I’d stock more politically correct loads.

1.) A wounded troll may choose to flee the hostile environment.

2.) A wounded troll that flees the scene may require medical attention/hospitalization. When the police arrive to question the troll and doctors treating him, it should be fairly easy for them to piece things together. How many trolls are showing up at hospitals with expensive, high-end tungsten shot rather than cheap lead…

3.) A wounded troll may leave more DNA evidence at the scene to further investigation/prosecution.

4.) A wounded troll may experience some loss of function or immediate and severe impairment of abilities, resulting in the troll being as easier target for follow-up shots.

To be honest, #4 and #2 shot are nothing to sneeze when there are a couple hundred of them flying downrange. A couple of these followed by 1-2 slugs or buck, just in case things get real ugly, might not be bad.

Box o’ Truth:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Birdshot can be devastating, but remember that an intruder might not oblige you with a clean head-on chest shot. If you have to go through an arm you’ll want more penetration. And you can’t rely on pain — to reliably stop someone you need to penetrate deep enough to break the important bits.

Some of the logic (mentioned previously in this topic) with bird shot for self defense is that if you are shooting the assailant inside your house, the shot is less likely to cause damage to walls, etc.

Another may be that 00′ buck and slugs will continue to travel through walls, furniture and family members, and right on through to the neighbors house as well.

Having seen the after effects of a slug accidentally discharged into a wall, I can understand why tungsten bird shot might be the first choice for a home full of spouses, kids, pets, and in laws…. well maybe not in laws. lol

Personally, I’m partial to low recoil 2 3/4 00′ buck. Its hard to argue with at any distance, and less likely to miss than slugs.

We used semi-auto handguns and fully automatic submachine gund and ARs, in hostage and room clearing training. Training was one thing but I often thought a choked shotgun would be better even in hostage situations. Hold 2 inches off an ear vs. tyring to hit the guy in the side of the head of that is all the target you have. I guess either way adrenelin is the culprit that causes 100 rounds shot in a room shootout and no one hit. So, for what it is worth, this is just another tool to use if you would prefer it over the old slug or buck rounds.

I do like a pump shotgun for home defense because of the cycling sound but there are no guarantees the sound is a deterent either as some of these guys are high or act “stupidly”.

since it is intended for home defense chances are that u will be close quarters and in your home when you use either one they might be thinking bird shot wont do as much damage to the inside of your home

Most people don’t have a para-military style shotgun in their house with an open choke. They have a hunting gun with a modified or full choke in it. That choke is going to have the pattern of the tungston shot narrowed down to a very small diameter at house fighting ranges. Tungston is hard than lead, and penetrates deeper than lead. I have no doubt that this a ammo shot out of a hunting shotgun will kill anyone that gets centered with the load.

I like shotguns, and prefer slugs for self-defense. And I’m not sure why they need to market special self-defense birdshot when you can find #3 buck even for 20ga weirdos like me which I’m more confident won’t go astray, but I don’t see birdshot as so much lead confetti. I know a few guys who load up with “goose shot” when out in the woods for those two legged snakes and when I lived in Jersey and NYC plenty of bodies went to the morgue with a .22 in their dome. If there’s a market sell it, but why aren’t people just buying the cheaper birdshot? There is a bit of blarney here with the marketing, but birdshot is viable for home defense if the shot #2 or #4 is used at close range.

Nevertheless, birdshot remains on the low-end for self-defense rounds. It’s better than nothing, but I can’t see making it a first choice. It just doesn’t penetrate deep enough. Yeah maybe the guy might bleed to death, eventually… but you just don’t know the psyche of an attacker. Maybe merely showing them the gun will deter with no shots fired, maybe he’ll need a lot of lead in him before he goes down. You just don’t know. But it’s your life… gamble with it how you wish.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal2.htm

The Army has stopped producing so-called “green” training rounds, because of research showing that the bullets’ main ingredient may be more toxic than previously thought. But that element, tungsten, is also in an array of other ammunition and munitions, as well. Which means all sorts of rockets, missiles, and anti-tank rounds may present an environmental hazard and a health risk.

Maybe Remington had a lot of Tungsten pellets ready to be used as a lead substitute in hunting loads but is now thinking better of it due to potential environmental concerns. So instead of disposing of the Tungsten pellets, they had their marketing department come up with a solution.

Has anyone seen prices for this? Cheaper than 00, but more expensive than birdshot?

Come on, don’t be shy. I know Remington hasn’t released one bit of data or stated exactly how these shells are the optimum load for home defense over say, any other kind of shotgun load, but you don’t need to know all that trivial stuff.

Look, it comes in a black box with the words ‘Ultimate Home Defense’ written on it, so it must be true. Plus the plastic hulls are all cool and black as well. In a night time, panic situation, having black colored ammo in the dark is good right?

So don’t go out and buy inexpensive bird shot for home defense, that would be stoopid. Buy this one is made from a tungsten alloy…oooh.

That being said, you do need a certain amount of penetration. Anything that will penetrate 12 inches would be pretty lethal.

I know that a .177 pellet rifle is capable of killing a human (the case I heard of was a child, heart shot) but I would prefer something a bit larger than BB’s for better penetration.

Simpy put, for apartment and condo dwellers and those living in the still-close confines of many suburban communities where stick-built homes are packed closely together, loads like this are the best compromise between fight-stopping power and the danger of over-penetration.

Perhaps you live along in a rural setting. Great. Enjoy your buckshot, backed by slugs.

If you have neighbors, however, it is your responsibility not to endanger their lives while attempting to guard your own. These purpose-built rounds are going to be better than the #4-#6 shot I used to recommend. I’m sure many “experts” think that isn’t enough, but I assure you than in the close confines of an in-home shooting where few people will be taking shots longer than 20 feet, lead shot is lethal. This denser load with provide greater penetration for those on the bubble and can extend the lethal range a few yards further out, but I’m not sure it is needed.

Buckshot and slugs in the burbs is an idea for gun shop commandos, IMHO. If you doubt me, read up on how far both penetrate in sheet rock, and then count the number of layers to your child’s bed, or to your neighbor’s bedroom, because statistics indicate you’re going to miss more often than you hit in such confrontations

Sure, you might stop a home invasion with Buck and slugs. But by employing such a payload, you’ve become a greater threat to your neighbors and family members than the home invader himself.

I wouldn’t want to use the #2/#4 stuff, though.

That all said, before I totally write this stuff off, like I said before I’d like to see some actual data. As Steve mentioned, maybe they know something we don’t… maybe there’s something to the tungsten alloy. It’d be nice to see some data and not just marketing.

I’ve taken deer with it at close range, no problem. At 10 meters it fractured bones and punched into the chest cavity of the deer. any longer range and it looses penetration FAST!

A deer is smaller than a grown man, but at short ranges and with the large birdshot pellets it’s still not all bad.

Don’t take my word for it. Get some phone books, some plywood and some card board targets. Shoot the plywood with your trusted 00 buck at different distances and then try those same distances with the bird shot. I know phone books and plywood don’t simulate flesh but for comparison against trusted 00 they can be used. Anyone serious about using a Shotgun should take some time to pattern their gun with at every distance and card board targets are great for that.

The Shotgun is a great tool and adaptable to any home or property size. Just a note, Bird Shot does go through drywall walls and usually but not always, stops in the opposite wall on the other side of the shot through room. 00 buck will make it through a couple walls but not much more than a bird shot and slugs will come out on the other side of the house. I load my Shotgun with 00 Buck and keep 4 rounds of Brenneke slugs in the Speedfeed stock.

So yeah, I think that the idea is to provide reasonably lethal force without having to worry about nailing family members through the walls.

If the person firing knows what they are doing, they will hit the threat with followup shots until there is no longer a threat.

In a home defense situation most people take up a defensive position if they are smart, like my elderly mother who has been trained to lock her door and get behind her bed, using the bed as a rest, and a barrier, keeping the gun on the door. While she is on the phone with 911.

Now say what you like, but their is no criminal I know who is going to soak up that bird shot at that range if he comes through that door, he will not keep coming, Further because of her age and build she can get off multiple shots of bird shot pretty quickly and on target.

People seem to think criminals are like what they see in the movies. The Zombie guy who can soak up multiple rounds of buck and keeps coming. When shots are fired people start moving, either to the ground or away from the muzzle blast.

In foreign countries where bird shot is all that is available, people kill each other with it often.

All of that being said do I recommend bird shot? No not if a person is capable of using something else. However in certain applications and with certain persons I would say absolutely. What you have to keep in mind is, there is no THE answer for anything. You do what works for you based on your situation, and use the options that will allow you to do your best in every situation.

And do not say recoil, and muzzle jump does not matter when you are fighting for your life because it does matter. Control and followup shots can be and are important. You get no better control when your adrenaline is pumping.

Maybe we will do a video showing what bird shot will do at different distances. I will assure hen you see it at home defense distance, it is more devastating then you might think.

Since I find it unlikely neither Federal nor Remington has managed to change the laws of physics, I would think the only thing we might have been unaware of that those manufacturers know is how much market there is for such rounds. Remember, plenty of people still do not really know what they are talking about and revert to that old standby, “Well I wouldn’t want to get shot with it.” (I wouldn’t want to get a paper cut, but in a life-or-death struggle one of those won’t stop me…)

AB:

“but if you give an intruder a freckle pattern with birdshot, he’ll have to go to the doctor sometime. And most docs log all gunshot injuries, Perhaps the blast pattern is distinctive so if the homeowner does shoot a person, the area hospitals and clinics can look for it.”

A round that fails to stop the attacker but makes him easier to find later, so the murder of the defender won’t remain an open case? Usually, when such twisted logic is applied, people are stripped of their legal right to self-defense entirely.

(See Y-Man’s post on turning bird shot into a slug).