Comments on: Taliban upgrading to the AK-74?!?! http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 23:24:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: robert http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-73393 robert Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:34:28 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-73393 i served in sadr city on 07-09. we saw a few dragunov out there,they have excellent stopping power . those "terrorist" know basics of markmanship. note, multiple rounds can and will penetrate ceramic plates eventually. on ak vs ak74 , the 74 is more accurate and lighter, and has less recoil. i own one personally admire the design . if those "terrorist" were better trained it would be bad. after my tour i can say the poor freedom fighters have won. people who fight for freedom don't lose. i am ashamed of this country for invading another, in reality WE are "terrorist" . if china did to us what we have done to the middle east u would fight just like ,.,them i would. we r no better than the taliban in my opinion. i admire and respect the middle east more than i did before. if they held out this long who really won?

i served in sadr city on 07-09. we saw a few dragunov out there,they have excellent stopping power . those “terrorist” know basics of markmanship. note, multiple rounds can and will penetrate ceramic plates eventually. on ak vs ak74 , the 74 is more accurate and lighter, and has less recoil. i own one personally admire the design . if those “terrorist” were better trained it would be bad. after my tour i can say the poor freedom fighters have won. people who fight for freedom don’t lose. i am ashamed of this country for invading another, in reality WE are “terrorist” . if china did to us what we have done to the middle east u would fight just like ,.,them i would. we r no better than the taliban in my opinion. i admire and respect the middle east more than i did before. if they held out this long who really won?

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]]> By: GarryB http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-73363 GarryB Fri, 07 Oct 2011 03:52:11 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-73363 Find it very amusing some are suggesting the 5.45mm round is somehow inferior to the 5.56. Have heard of plenty of complaints about the lethality of the 5.56, especially beyond 300m, and its inconsistent performance within 300m. Very simply the 5.45mm standard round is tail heavy and will tumble on impact by design. The Hague convention bans ammunition designed to deform on impact like soft nose ammo, which is why military forces use full metal jacket ammo. The 5.56mm standard round was designed to fragment and when it does fragment inside the target it is effective, when it does not, it is not. The west could not complain about the 5.45mm round tumbling on impact when they use a round designed to fragment inside the target. The 5.45mm round remains in one piece but tends to turn inside the body 90 degrees after initially tumbling, which often makes finding the exit hole difficult and the internal damage extensive. The lower recoil and longer slimmer bullet design makes the 5.45mm round much more efficient than the original short stubby 5.56mm. BTW there is no such thing as accurate or inaccurate rounds. A round is consistent or it is inconsistent. The length of the shell case has nothing at all to do with the consistency of a round. The 7.62 x 39mm round was the basis via the Russian .220 for the 6mm PPC, and .22 PPC bench rest rounds considered to be the most accurate currently available. Find it very amusing some are suggesting the 5.45mm round is somehow inferior to the 5.56.

Have heard of plenty of complaints about the lethality of the 5.56, especially beyond 300m, and its inconsistent performance within 300m.

Very simply the 5.45mm standard round is tail heavy and will tumble on impact by design.

The Hague convention bans ammunition designed to deform on impact like soft nose ammo, which is why military forces use full metal jacket ammo.

The 5.56mm standard round was designed to fragment and when it does fragment inside the target it is effective, when it does not, it is not.

The west could not complain about the 5.45mm round tumbling on impact when they use a round designed to fragment inside the target.

The 5.45mm round remains in one piece but tends to turn inside the body 90 degrees after initially tumbling, which often makes finding the exit hole difficult and the internal damage extensive.

The lower recoil and longer slimmer bullet design makes the 5.45mm round much more efficient than the original short stubby 5.56mm.

BTW there is no such thing as accurate or inaccurate rounds. A round is consistent or it is inconsistent.

The length of the shell case has nothing at all to do with the consistency of a round.

The 7.62 x 39mm round was the basis via the Russian .220 for the 6mm PPC, and .22 PPC bench rest rounds considered to be the most accurate currently available.

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]]> By: Ajb http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-54660 Ajb Thu, 03 Feb 2011 23:11:42 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-54660 The 5.45x39 ammo is much more accurate than the 7.62x39 ammo. It's bullet performs better than the 5.56, because it's a new design, but the 5.56 casing is 6mm longer, so it makes the 5.56 bullet more accurate at slightly longer distances. Just means the Taliban will be making more accurate shots, than the old ak47, with less recoil than our own 5.56, and better terminal ballistics, with comparable velocity. The 5.45×39 ammo is much more accurate than the 7.62×39 ammo. It’s bullet performs better than the 5.56, because it’s a new design, but the 5.56 casing is 6mm longer, so it makes the 5.56 bullet more accurate at slightly longer distances.

Just means the Taliban will be making more accurate shots, than the old ak47, with less recoil than our own 5.56, and better terminal ballistics, with comparable velocity.

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]]> By: Anton http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-43098 Anton Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:51:41 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-43098 Maybe we should develop a variant on the AK that shoots back at the shooter, and then put them on the market in Afghanistan. Maybe we should develop a variant on the AK that shoots back at the shooter, and then put them on the market in Afghanistan.

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]]> By: charles222 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-43090 charles222 Mon, 20 Sep 2010 15:47:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-43090 It wouldn't matter if they're toting around phased-plasma pulse rifles, given that your average Taliban is a horrible shot. The Mujahideen in the 80s who got Stingers were by no means all-inclusive; they were typically picked based on who was doing well lobbing RPG and SA-7 missiles at Hinds. In other words, a distinct minority. Most of the Russian weapons and equipment I encountered in my Afghanistan deployment was distinctly in bad shape-generally uncared for, broken sights, missing buttstocks, etc. The Russians left alot of hardware there, but it's been sitting in the desert for the last twenty years with no spare parts and no qualified people to repair them. It wouldn’t matter if they’re toting around phased-plasma pulse rifles, given that your average Taliban is a horrible shot.

The Mujahideen in the 80s who got Stingers were by no means all-inclusive; they were typically picked based on who was doing well lobbing RPG and SA-7 missiles at Hinds. In other words, a distinct minority.

Most of the Russian weapons and equipment I encountered in my Afghanistan deployment was distinctly in bad shape-generally uncared for, broken sights, missing buttstocks, etc. The Russians left alot of hardware there, but it’s been sitting in the desert for the last twenty years with no spare parts and no qualified people to repair them.

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]]> By: Milgeek http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-33659 Milgeek Fri, 14 May 2010 08:16:29 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-33659 I actually stick with the initial premiss of Steve's post... That by adhering to the 'AK74 myth' that it's hugely superior for penetrating NATO body armour they (the Taliban) are actually wasting much needed cash! You guys are obviously far more in touch with the science of the ballistics involved, but time after time I see photos on the British MoD News site showing Taliban rounds which have failed to pierce ether Osprey body armour or the Mk 6 (much less the new Mk 7) helmet! I say leave well alone and let them continue to believe the AK74 is a good buy! :) (Also - isn't their mixing in the AK74 into their inventory another good thing for us? Not only do they have the additional logistic nightmare of sourcing another calibre of round, their footsoldiers no longer have the ability to swap magazines between the mixture of AK/AKM and AK74 users.) Just a thought. I actually stick with the initial premiss of Steve’s post…

That by adhering to the ‘AK74 myth’ that it’s hugely superior for penetrating NATO body armour they (the Taliban) are actually wasting much needed cash!

You guys are obviously far more in touch with the science of the ballistics involved, but time after time I see photos on the British MoD News site showing Taliban rounds which have failed to pierce ether Osprey body armour or the Mk 6 (much less the new Mk 7) helmet!

I say leave well alone and let them continue to believe the AK74 is a good buy! :)

(Also – isn’t their mixing in the AK74 into their inventory another good thing for us? Not only do they have the additional logistic nightmare of sourcing another calibre of round, their footsoldiers no longer have the ability to swap magazines between the mixture of AK/AKM and AK74 users.)

Just a thought.

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]]> By: Dave http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-31852 Dave Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:47:47 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-31852 Steve, The 5.45mm 7N10 steel core bullet has better armor penetration than 7.62x39mm mild steel core ammo. 5.45mm 7N10 should have similar armor penetration to 5.56mm M855. Steve,

The 5.45mm 7N10 steel core bullet has better armor penetration than 7.62x39mm mild steel core ammo. 5.45mm 7N10 should have similar armor penetration to 5.56mm M855.

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]]> By: Dave http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-28912 Dave Fri, 19 Mar 2010 02:13:55 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-28912 Jdun1911, When you say that 5.45×39 AP can't penetrated ceramic armour, are you talking about the 7N10, 7N22, or 7N24? 7N24 has a tungsten core like the M995. M995 can penetrate most Lv4 armour. Although there is very little data on the 5.45mm 7N24, due to having a similar core to M995 and if its velocity is high like that of M995, then it may be possible for 7N24 to penetrate Lv4 armour. Jdun1911,

When you say that 5.45×39 AP can’t penetrated ceramic armour, are you talking about the 7N10, 7N22, or 7N24? 7N24 has a tungsten core like the M995. M995 can penetrate most Lv4 armour. Although there is very little data on the 5.45mm 7N24, due to having a similar core to M995 and if its velocity is high like that of M995, then it may be possible for 7N24 to penetrate Lv4 armour.

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]]> By: beentheredonethat http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-28860 beentheredonethat Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:54:29 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-28860 The biggest threat to the NATO troops in Afghanistan are not anything other than roadside IEDs, SVIED, VIEDs...meaning really big explosions. Homemade explosives are the biggest threat that the troops talk about there. Small arms don't keep guys up at night. RPGs don't even keep guys up at night. The Mortar rounds they fire at the camps don't keep the guys up at night. So ya enough talk about this small little issue of what type of rifle they use cause it doesn't matter. The biggest threat to the NATO troops in Afghanistan are not anything other than roadside IEDs, SVIED, VIEDs…meaning really big explosions. Homemade explosives are the biggest threat that the troops talk about there. Small arms don’t keep guys up at night. RPGs don’t even keep guys up at night. The Mortar rounds they fire at the camps don’t keep the guys up at night. So ya enough talk about this small little issue of what type of rifle they use cause it doesn’t matter.

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]]> By: ded led http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-27713 ded led Sun, 28 Feb 2010 04:16:44 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-27713 spud gun we that is the U.S. Gov. gave them the stingers to fight the Russians with. spud gun we that is the U.S. Gov. gave them the stingers to fight the Russians with.

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]]> By: destroyer http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-23781 destroyer Sat, 16 Jan 2010 05:33:49 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-23781 AK74's have always been in afghanistan...because the soviets left!!! this article is nothing but sensationalism... AK74′s have always been in afghanistan…because the soviets left!!! this article is nothing but sensationalism…

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]]> By: Karlos http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-15100 Karlos Sat, 26 Sep 2009 02:48:33 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-15100 The Russian made AK's are much better made than the chinese variants, the metal used is also better quality. Most of the AK's and SVD's in Afghanistan have now been there since the mid 70's so they have usualy had over 30 years of abuse, although they will work without ever being cleaned the accuracy is effected. The 5.56X45 NATO carrys around 250ftlb more muzzle energy than the 5.45X39, although the 5.56 does not penetrate anything well it tumbles almost on impact, the 5.45 was designed to penetrate more than the 5.56 and still tumble after impact, where as the 7.62X39 begins to tumble after leaving what would be a human sized target. And as for the SVD using Russian made 7N14 ammo in the hands of a well trained sniper, new and clean, they will shoot 1MOA, and will easily hit human targets at 800m, remember the taliban are using a poorly maintained SVD that may have not been cleaned for decades, with scopes that have been abused and using general purpose 7.62X54R ammo intended for light machineguns. The Russian made AK’s are much better made than the chinese variants, the metal used is also better quality. Most of the AK’s and SVD’s in Afghanistan have now been there since the mid 70′s so they have usualy had over 30 years of abuse, although they will work without ever being cleaned the accuracy is effected.
The 5.56X45 NATO carrys around 250ftlb more muzzle energy than the 5.45X39, although the 5.56 does not penetrate anything well it tumbles almost on impact, the 5.45 was designed to penetrate more than the 5.56 and still tumble after impact, where as the 7.62X39 begins to tumble after leaving what would be a human sized target.
And as for the SVD using Russian made 7N14 ammo in the hands of a well trained sniper, new and clean, they will shoot 1MOA, and will easily hit human targets at 800m, remember the taliban are using a poorly maintained SVD that may have not been cleaned for decades, with scopes that have been abused and using general purpose 7.62X54R ammo intended for light machineguns.

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]]> By: jdun1911 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-14082 jdun1911 Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:25:41 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-14082 That's neat rootman. That Japanese made their version of the box of truth with a better production value. You can't compare steel core to lead core bullets. Steel core bullets will penetrate better then lead bullets. That is a given. A fair comparison would be steel core for both cartridge. The 5.56 does come in steel core, m855 (green tip)/ss-109. That’s neat rootman. That Japanese made their version of the box of truth with a better production value.

You can’t compare steel core to lead core bullets. Steel core bullets will penetrate better then lead bullets. That is a given. A fair comparison would be steel core for both cartridge.

The 5.56 does come in steel core, m855 (green tip)/ss-109.

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]]> By: Sven Ortmann http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-14048 Sven Ortmann Sat, 05 Sep 2009 08:02:32 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-14048 @Vitor: "So, if the 5.56mm lacks “stopping power” against the Talibans in those long distances of Afghanistan, the russian equivalent will be even worse against big healthy americans ..." A bigger guy being hit means that the tumbling has greater effect. The tumbling isn't instant, so it does often begin too late (deep) as to do much damage to a skinny guy. @Vitor:
“So, if the 5.56mm lacks “stopping power” against the Talibans in those long distances of Afghanistan, the russian equivalent will be even worse against big healthy americans …”

A bigger guy being hit means that the tumbling has greater effect. The tumbling isn’t instant, so it does often begin too late (deep) as to do much damage to a skinny guy.

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]]> By: subby http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-14039 subby Sat, 05 Sep 2009 02:07:48 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-14039 Considering the only real difference seperating soldiers from the taliban now, is 2 plates of ceramic armour and better shooting skill, that sucks. Airstrikes are becoming more and more discouraged due to civilian casualties and its practically a mano a mano fight out there. Considering the only real difference seperating soldiers from the taliban now, is 2 plates of ceramic armour and better shooting skill, that sucks. Airstrikes are becoming more and more discouraged due to civilian casualties and its practically a mano a mano fight out there.

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]]> By: jdun1911 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-14032 jdun1911 Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:25:52 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-14032 I can assure you that our boys in Afghanistan are wearing ceramic armor in patrol. They are carrying well over 80 lbs on their back in some cases. I can assure you that our boys in Afghanistan are wearing ceramic armor in patrol. They are carrying well over 80 lbs on their back in some cases.

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]]> By: rootman http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-14027 rootman Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:01:44 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-14027 AK-74 penetration is superior due to steel core. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4d6_1191058315 AK-74 penetration is superior due to steel core.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4d6_1191058315

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]]> By: subby http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-14021 subby Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:35:14 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-14021 The kevlar portions of body armour in Iraq could never stop the 5.45, 5.62 and much less the 7.62mm round. Only the ceramic plates could stop those rounds, being conveniently rated for the 7.62mm round. The kevlar armour is mainly for protection from shrapnel from IEDs, since that is not as a serious of a problem in Afghanistan, the can reduce their armour. Which is great cause they'll be doing alot more foot patrols. As for AK74, it will make the taliban able to carry more ammo, probably increase their accuracy and increase their speed for followup shots. All of which is bad news for our soldiers. I also have no doubt they are outfitting themselvs with quality optic binoculars and longer range communication equipment. Increasing their effectiveness greatly. The kevlar portions of body armour in Iraq could never stop the 5.45, 5.62 and much less the 7.62mm round. Only the ceramic plates could stop those rounds, being conveniently rated for the 7.62mm round. The kevlar armour is mainly for protection from shrapnel from IEDs, since that is not as a serious of a problem in Afghanistan, the can reduce their armour. Which is great cause they’ll be doing alot more foot patrols.

As for AK74, it will make the taliban able to carry more ammo, probably increase their accuracy and increase their speed for followup shots. All of which is bad news for our soldiers.

I also have no doubt they are outfitting themselvs with quality optic binoculars and longer range communication equipment. Increasing their effectiveness greatly.

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]]> By: Simon_The_Brit http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-14016 Simon_The_Brit Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:31:24 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-14016 "Apparently they are very much into the “latest” gear" in that case all the West has to do is persuade the Taliban terrorists that Airsoft is the latest and greatest gear to have. “Apparently they are very much into the “latest” gear” in that case all the West has to do is persuade the Taliban terrorists that Airsoft is the latest and greatest gear to have.

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]]> By: Michael http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/03/taliban-upgrading-to-the-ak-74/comment-page-1/#comment-14008 Michael Fri, 04 Sep 2009 05:25:48 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7631#comment-14008 Jdun1911, While you're correct that russian 5.45 generally won't ESAPI plate body armor, is is still pretty effective at penetrating soft kevlar. One of the fundamental differences between Iraq and Afghanistan is that in Iraq, most foot patrols were of very limited duration and are primarily vehicle bourn. In A-stan, patrols are far longer, over worse terrain, and troops are (even still) less likely to encounter IEDs. As a result, many units have adapted by dramatically reducing the standard armor compared to an Iraq load out. Hence, even the 5.45 can be effective. That said, the original article from the Guardian involves an entire one source. I wouldn't think that the AK-74 is all that new of a trend in AfPak, but the story is simply a result of one guy surprised to learn that the Soviets upgraded the AK 30 years ago. Michael Jdun1911,
While you’re correct that russian 5.45 generally won’t ESAPI plate body armor, is is still pretty effective at penetrating soft kevlar. One of the fundamental differences between Iraq and Afghanistan is that in Iraq, most foot patrols were of very limited duration and are primarily vehicle bourn. In A-stan, patrols are far longer, over worse terrain, and troops are (even still) less likely to encounter IEDs. As a result, many units have adapted by dramatically reducing the standard armor compared to an Iraq load out. Hence, even the 5.45 can be effective.
That said, the original article from the Guardian involves an entire one source. I wouldn’t think that the AK-74 is all that new of a trend in AfPak, but the story is simply a result of one guy surprised to learn that the Soviets upgraded the AK 30 years ago.

Michael

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