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	<title>Comments on: India&#8217;s new Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC) and 5.56&#215;30mm Ammunition</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/</link>
	<description>Firearms not Politics</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:31:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: prettypete</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-16274</link>
		<dc:creator>prettypete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-16274</guid>
		<description>Interesting and well thought out analyses, Dany. And great track on the pistol issue, that they should share the same ammo as the PDW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting and well thought out analyses, Dany. And great track on the pistol issue, that they should share the same ammo as the PDW.</p>
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		<title>By: prettypete</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-16183</link>
		<dc:creator>prettypete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-16183</guid>
		<description>No offense, but I&#039;ve heard that the PDW, machine carbine and carbine replacing the pistol or that the pistol has, heretofore, become redundant oftentimes before. However, the pistol though far from ideal in the battlefield and especially in its bigger bore variants, has always staged a comeback.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No offense, but I&#8217;ve heard that the PDW, machine carbine and carbine replacing the pistol or that the pistol has, heretofore, become redundant oftentimes before. However, the pistol though far from ideal in the battlefield and especially in its bigger bore variants, has always staged a comeback.</p>
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		<title>By: DanKnyphausen</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-15937</link>
		<dc:creator>DanKnyphausen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-15937</guid>
		<description>I should note that these two weapons would *compliment* standard Assault Rifles and such in the mainstream military (front line) environment, NOT replace them. As good as this midrange round may be, you still need the ability to land a good amount of debilitating and/or lethal hits at the 300+ meter range. 
Possibly, for Mechanized/Heliborne/Light Infantry troops, the &quot;Machine Carbine&quot; could be restricted to two Troopers in six (whichever two would, ordinarily, either need their hands free the most, or would be most likely to sweep buildings, backed up by a man with a full-power S.A.W. like an Ultimax 100), the rest would have purely standard weapons.
For REMF troops, and the &quot;Personal Defence Weapon&quot; it would be the exact opposite. All but, say, two Troopers in six, the remaining two with full power carbines and light optics (3.5x or so). Again, the idea being that they aren&#039;t there to fight, jut to be able to protect themselves if they&#039;re attacked, and be able to withdraw. The two sets of boots with carbines being the best two shots in the group already, and having a tool that takes maximum advantage of that. Even if the ratio is 5:1, it&#039;d still be a huge benefit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should note that these two weapons would *compliment* standard Assault Rifles and such in the mainstream military (front line) environment, NOT replace them. As good as this midrange round may be, you still need the ability to land a good amount of debilitating and/or lethal hits at the 300+ meter range.<br />
Possibly, for Mechanized/Heliborne/Light Infantry troops, the &#8220;Machine Carbine&#8221; could be restricted to two Troopers in six (whichever two would, ordinarily, either need their hands free the most, or would be most likely to sweep buildings, backed up by a man with a full-power S.A.W. like an Ultimax 100), the rest would have purely standard weapons.<br />
For REMF troops, and the &#8220;Personal Defence Weapon&#8221; it would be the exact opposite. All but, say, two Troopers in six, the remaining two with full power carbines and light optics (3.5x or so). Again, the idea being that they aren&#8217;t there to fight, jut to be able to protect themselves if they&#8217;re attacked, and be able to withdraw. The two sets of boots with carbines being the best two shots in the group already, and having a tool that takes maximum advantage of that. Even if the ratio is 5:1, it&#8217;d still be a huge benefit.</p>
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		<title>By: DanKnyphausen</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-15936</link>
		<dc:creator>DanKnyphausen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:49:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-15936</guid>
		<description>Just a little food for thought.. think about procurement versus expected use. A 1.7&quot; long round (the 5.56mm MARS and, I&#039;m guessing, this one as well) could find its way ino the envelope of replacing the following:

-Handgun
-Sub-Machine Gun
-Sub-Carbine/Micro Carbine (those 10&quot; and smaller barreled M4-like things that&#039;re becoming all the craze)
-Personal Defence Weapon (in its truest meaning, for REMF&#039;s and vehicle crews)

With just one or two purpose-made weapons. That&#039;s four weapons, of at minimum two calibers (say 9x19mm and 5.56 NATO), replaced by one weapon that could possibly use the same projectile (a 55gr bullet if the Idians do switch over to 5.56 NATO and something like the SS109). Those purpose-made weapons could be:

-A &quot;Machine Carbine&quot; with all the performance of a rifle round at close quarters (fragmentation, wounding ability, shock ability, pain and suffering, debilitation, and armour penetration) and out to 250-300m (typical combat range, ask the Germans and why they made the 8mm Kurtz round). This would be for special operations use, MOUT use by infantry or mechanized forces, COIN/CT/Anti-Terror/High-Risk Breach for SWAT units, in a weapon about the same size as, say, something the size of an HK33KA3 with a retractable stock - a &quot;carbine-like&quot; weapon, that&#039;s &quot;full sized&quot; for this round. I&#039;m thinking a good 13&quot; to 13.5&quot; barrel or so, with a folding or collapseable stock that goes all the way to the receiver, to keep it very compact and lightweight for long distance missions (and to save weigt for more ammo at the same total weight package). That should keep it still smaller than an M4 and the two/2.5 extra inches of barrel should bring long distance (100+m) performance up to at least par with the M4 Carbine. The chart up there omits the M4&#039;s performance (14.5&quot; barrel), but it&#039;s a good guess that it&#039;s about in between the MARS and the M16, towards the lower end. Capacity, ideally, would be 40-50 rounds per magazine.. as much as 60 if it can be done efficiently (think weight, size, existing mag pouch dimensions, etc.)

-A &quot;Personal Defence Weapon&quot; with the performance of a rifle round at very close ranges (0-50m). This would be something like the MSMC above, or like the H&amp;K MP7. This would replace handguns, SMG&#039;s and existing &quot;crew personal weapons&quot; for non-infantry personnel and be designed for *defencive* use. That is, put plenty of rounds down range while moving away from the engagement. If the enemy is ambushing your convoy, they&#039;re almost at knife-and-bayonet range as it is. You don&#039;t need a weapon that can kiss the fly on their head at 200m, you need one that can hit the torso of a man-sized target at just a few dozen feet. The MP7 comes with &quot;spoon-tip&quot; rounds, that seem to be plenty legal (Hague convention - the Bundesheer is issuing the MP7 now, and they are, I believe, signatories of it), and in a larger (.223&quot; vs .183&quot; or 5.7mm vs 4.6mm) round, plenty lethal. In this weapon, hits count. If you have five troops returning fire with five of these PDWs and one on a mounted weapon, that&#039;s six things throwing full-auto lead in a nice blanket - high hit probability, and good enough to cause either debilitating wounds or death on enough targets to make escape possible. For India worrying about Pakistan, this makes great sense. 

By replacing SMG&#039;s, Sub-Cars, almost all Handguns (General/Staff Officers could be issued a handgun in this same caliber, the round is only 0.10&quot; longer than the P90 round) and PDW&#039;s, you save on Training requirements (time and money). By acquiring two weapons instead of (at least) four, you save acquisition costs. By switching to one caliber instead of (at least) two, you save ammunition costs. By using the same types of projectiles, you save on acquiring new machines to make bullets.. the list goes on. It&#039;s incredibly cost effective, in theory, and it simplifies weapon training for those that aren&#039;t expected to do much fighting, AND gives the potential for extending these benefits to SWAT-type units.. the postives can potentially outweigh the negatives, if the system is implemented correctly and with enough forethought.. an if the politicians can stay out of the mess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a little food for thought.. think about procurement versus expected use. A 1.7&#8243; long round (the 5.56mm MARS and, I&#8217;m guessing, this one as well) could find its way ino the envelope of replacing the following:</p>
<p>-Handgun<br />
-Sub-Machine Gun<br />
-Sub-Carbine/Micro Carbine (those 10&#8243; and smaller barreled M4-like things that&#8217;re becoming all the craze)<br />
-Personal Defence Weapon (in its truest meaning, for REMF&#8217;s and vehicle crews)</p>
<p>With just one or two purpose-made weapons. That&#8217;s four weapons, of at minimum two calibers (say 9&#215;19mm and 5.56 NATO), replaced by one weapon that could possibly use the same projectile (a 55gr bullet if the Idians do switch over to 5.56 NATO and something like the SS109). Those purpose-made weapons could be:</p>
<p>-A &#8220;Machine Carbine&#8221; with all the performance of a rifle round at close quarters (fragmentation, wounding ability, shock ability, pain and suffering, debilitation, and armour penetration) and out to 250-300m (typical combat range, ask the Germans and why they made the 8mm Kurtz round). This would be for special operations use, MOUT use by infantry or mechanized forces, COIN/CT/Anti-Terror/High-Risk Breach for SWAT units, in a weapon about the same size as, say, something the size of an HK33KA3 with a retractable stock &#8211; a &#8220;carbine-like&#8221; weapon, that&#8217;s &#8220;full sized&#8221; for this round. I&#8217;m thinking a good 13&#8243; to 13.5&#8243; barrel or so, with a folding or collapseable stock that goes all the way to the receiver, to keep it very compact and lightweight for long distance missions (and to save weigt for more ammo at the same total weight package). That should keep it still smaller than an M4 and the two/2.5 extra inches of barrel should bring long distance (100+m) performance up to at least par with the M4 Carbine. The chart up there omits the M4&#8217;s performance (14.5&#8243; barrel), but it&#8217;s a good guess that it&#8217;s about in between the MARS and the M16, towards the lower end. Capacity, ideally, would be 40-50 rounds per magazine.. as much as 60 if it can be done efficiently (think weight, size, existing mag pouch dimensions, etc.)</p>
<p>-A &#8220;Personal Defence Weapon&#8221; with the performance of a rifle round at very close ranges (0-50m). This would be something like the MSMC above, or like the H&amp;K MP7. This would replace handguns, SMG&#8217;s and existing &#8220;crew personal weapons&#8221; for non-infantry personnel and be designed for *defencive* use. That is, put plenty of rounds down range while moving away from the engagement. If the enemy is ambushing your convoy, they&#8217;re almost at knife-and-bayonet range as it is. You don&#8217;t need a weapon that can kiss the fly on their head at 200m, you need one that can hit the torso of a man-sized target at just a few dozen feet. The MP7 comes with &#8220;spoon-tip&#8221; rounds, that seem to be plenty legal (Hague convention &#8211; the Bundesheer is issuing the MP7 now, and they are, I believe, signatories of it), and in a larger (.223&#8243; vs .183&#8243; or 5.7mm vs 4.6mm) round, plenty lethal. In this weapon, hits count. If you have five troops returning fire with five of these PDWs and one on a mounted weapon, that&#8217;s six things throwing full-auto lead in a nice blanket &#8211; high hit probability, and good enough to cause either debilitating wounds or death on enough targets to make escape possible. For India worrying about Pakistan, this makes great sense. </p>
<p>By replacing SMG&#8217;s, Sub-Cars, almost all Handguns (General/Staff Officers could be issued a handgun in this same caliber, the round is only 0.10&#8243; longer than the P90 round) and PDW&#8217;s, you save on Training requirements (time and money). By acquiring two weapons instead of (at least) four, you save acquisition costs. By switching to one caliber instead of (at least) two, you save ammunition costs. By using the same types of projectiles, you save on acquiring new machines to make bullets.. the list goes on. It&#8217;s incredibly cost effective, in theory, and it simplifies weapon training for those that aren&#8217;t expected to do much fighting, AND gives the potential for extending these benefits to SWAT-type units.. the postives can potentially outweigh the negatives, if the system is implemented correctly and with enough forethought.. an if the politicians can stay out of the mess.</p>
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		<title>By: komrad</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13937</link>
		<dc:creator>komrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 21:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13937</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d take a P90 over that little thing any day. Probably a bit heavier but the bullpup design and longer barrel would give it a little more versatility. And it looks like that thing doesnt have anywhere near the 50 round capacity of the P90.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d take a P90 over that little thing any day. Probably a bit heavier but the bullpup design and longer barrel would give it a little more versatility. And it looks like that thing doesnt have anywhere near the 50 round capacity of the P90.</p>
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		<title>By: Vitor</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13934</link>
		<dc:creator>Vitor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 21:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13934</guid>
		<description>Well, the Knight 6mm isnt really that heavier, 62 grains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the Knight 6mm isnt really that heavier, 62 grains.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13909</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13909</guid>
		<description>jody, good to have you posting!

I agree with you. Same concept, but I think that a heavier 6mm bullet would be better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jody, good to have you posting!</p>
<p>I agree with you. Same concept, but I think that a heavier 6mm bullet would be better.</p>
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		<title>By: jody</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13908</link>
		<dc:creator>jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13908</guid>
		<description>been lurking here for a year. first post.

how is this new indian round any different than the 6x35 round developed for the knight&#039;s armanent PDW? seems like almost the same thing, only worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight&#039;s_Armament_Company_PDW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>been lurking here for a year. first post.</p>
<p>how is this new indian round any different than the 6&#215;35 round developed for the knight&#8217;s armanent PDW? seems like almost the same thing, only worse.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight</a>&#8217;s_Armament_Company_PDW</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13904</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13904</guid>
		<description>Matt, ha ha, nice</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, ha ha, nice</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Groom</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13902</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Groom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 22:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13902</guid>
		<description>Ten mill gives me a thrill,
better than some .22 pill.
Disagree you might, but still
these shoes may be tough to fill.
Better designs? There are nil.
I think .40 fits the bill, 
when you have to take that hill
you need a little more than will. 
When hostiles break your chill,
you need something that can kill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ten mill gives me a thrill,<br />
better than some .22 pill.<br />
Disagree you might, but still<br />
these shoes may be tough to fill.<br />
Better designs? There are nil.<br />
I think .40 fits the bill,<br />
when you have to take that hill<br />
you need a little more than will.<br />
When hostiles break your chill,<br />
you need something that can kill.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13865</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13865</guid>
		<description>Whatever, I agree</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever, I agree</p>
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		<title>By: Whatever</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13862</link>
		<dc:creator>Whatever</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13862</guid>
		<description>If their goal was a meaningful round based on the 5.56x45mm cartridge out of a shorter barrelled gun, I would have gone for a larger diameter bullet in a case of the same length, something like the 6.5mm TCU. A larger bore should let a similar weight bullet reach a similar velocity from a shorter barrel.

If I was going to go through the trouble of making a new submachine gun to fire a new cartridge, I&#039;d pick a better cartridge, like the 9x25 Dillon (115gr @ 1800 fps from a 6&quot; barrel). I thought sub-machine guns were supposed to be for engagements of a hundred yards or less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If their goal was a meaningful round based on the 5.56&#215;45mm cartridge out of a shorter barrelled gun, I would have gone for a larger diameter bullet in a case of the same length, something like the 6.5mm TCU. A larger bore should let a similar weight bullet reach a similar velocity from a shorter barrel.</p>
<p>If I was going to go through the trouble of making a new submachine gun to fire a new cartridge, I&#8217;d pick a better cartridge, like the 9&#215;25 Dillon (115gr @ 1800 fps from a 6&#8243; barrel). I thought sub-machine guns were supposed to be for engagements of a hundred yards or less.</p>
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		<title>By: Kris</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13861</link>
		<dc:creator>Kris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13861</guid>
		<description>I think the issue is, however, that the 5.56 does its deed by by fragmentation.  That&#039;s how the wound is generated.

As the &quot;bullet board&quot; shows, you gotta be above 2500 fps to reliably generate fragmentation.  Based on the estimated velocity chart, that is no more than about 25 yards.

While true that a PDW is a short range weapon, I&#039;d like it to be reliably beyond 25 yards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the issue is, however, that the 5.56 does its deed by by fragmentation.  That&#8217;s how the wound is generated.</p>
<p>As the &#8220;bullet board&#8221; shows, you gotta be above 2500 fps to reliably generate fragmentation.  Based on the estimated velocity chart, that is no more than about 25 yards.</p>
<p>While true that a PDW is a short range weapon, I&#8217;d like it to be reliably beyond 25 yards.</p>
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		<title>By: Freiheit</title>
		<link>http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/indias-new-modern-submachine-carbine-msmc-and-5-56x30mm-ammunition/#comment-13853</link>
		<dc:creator>Freiheit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=7563#comment-13853</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that a submachine gun isn&#039;t really designed to work well at 200 meters no matter what the ammo or muzzle velocity is. How does it do clearing rooms and fragging watermelons??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that a submachine gun isn&#8217;t really designed to work well at 200 meters no matter what the ammo or muzzle velocity is. How does it do clearing rooms and fragging watermelons??</p>
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