Comments on: Birdshot for self defense? Federal say yes

By: Harry J Reeves

Harry J Reeves — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:58:30 +0000

People, please get your heads out of the area where there is no sun shine. I have 4 judges and a private pistol range where I have fired these beasts many times. Forget penetration FBI nonsense. How deep does a # 4 pellet have to penetrate ones eye balls, gum’s cheeks nose, chin throat, ears etc. The idea is to deter them from harming you and a face full of lead pellets will stop anybody no matter what their condition from continuing to be a threat. They won’t be able to see you or smell you or talk to you, what more could you ask for. Remember you have 5 chances to get them to change their thought patterns and accuracy is not required.

By: Dick

Dick — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:55:00 +0000

In response to JumpinJeepers:

I say again and again. “Snake loads are for snakes. Birdshot is for the birds”.

However for larger “game” try Federal’s 2-1/2″ .410 4×000 BUCKSHOT ROUNDS!

4 .36″ copper-plated balls traveling in excess of 650fps impacting an area of a 3″ circle at 20 feet is impressive. 8-12″ at 40″ defines it’s maximum EFFECTIVE range.

It´not a .45 Colt but in a close-in engagement I prefer BUCKSHOT!

By: JumpinJeepers

JumpinJeepers — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:25:44 +0000

I own a Judge. After seeing “standard” snake shot loads fail and fail again, I wanted something more. The Judge goes fishing and hunting with me, It is used on snakes and in the case of rabid animals, those too. I use .45 Colt for target/fun, it’s an easy reload. I don’t know why anyone would want to shoot a person/animal with a .410 shell from a Judge at any range, .410/Judge combo is NOT a human/human defensive load, it’s a human/critter defensive load. The .45 Colt is a good human/human defensive round. Yeah, the Judge is large, but that’s the price you pay for a multi-role revolver, If someone wants a carry gun they will buy a carry gun.

IMO “Judge Haters” are some of the most annoying people I know.

By: Thomas

Thomas — Fri, 15 Jan 2010 03:36:09 +0000

Dick : I once purchased a used Bond derringer in the .45/.410 caliber and also included in the purchase were the barrel for the .45ACP as well as the barrel for the .22 LR , I was able to have fun with the same derringer shooting at tin cans , plicking etc and still have the more powerful .45/.410 barrel when I needed it . It was like having several guns in one ! There is no way a person could ever get the same feel , recoil or accuracy shooting the .22 LR out of the same weapon as you would with the .45/.410 ! Even shooting the 3 inch .410 has more noticable recoil than the 2 and a half inch .410 especially in the Bond or American Arms derringers ! Accuracy is really not that great in any derringer as these are over and under weapons the point of the bullet impact will be different with the second shot , this is where the Taurus Judge is superior to the derringer ! I had a good laugh once looking at the American Arms web site and seeing one of their derringers listed as the “Alaskan survival” derringer ! The weapon had one barrel chambered for the .410 shotgun cartridge and the other barrel chambered for the .45/70 , the barrells were 6 inches in lenght , I could only picture someone trying to aim and shoot at either a charging Alaskan polar bear or a grizzly bear with a two shot derringer , the bear would have to be on top of them before there could be an accurate fatal shot ! That is unless the person’s wrist wasn’t broken first firing the .45/70 !

By: dick

dick — Thu, 14 Jan 2010 18:20:10 +0000

Thomas

I would not recomend someone purchasing a large caliber Bond derringer because of the interchangeable barrels.

For this reason – Large caliber small handguns (Derringers) require practice (painfull as it may be at the beginning) not only for accuracy, but for recoil management, both physical and MENTAL!

Practicing with .22, .25, or .32 caliber barrels will surely improve accuracy USING THE SMALLER CALIBER, but I think will provide little, if any, improvement in accuracy when you switch to the larger caliber barrels for concealed carry and critical self defense use under stress use.

Your thoughts?

By: Thomas

Thomas — Thu, 14 Jan 2010 04:39:55 +0000

If any of you are into the .45/.410 derringers I highly recommend that you purchase one of the Bond Arms derringers they are equally well made as the American Arms derringers but have one big advantage , you can purchase different caliber barrels for your Bond derringer , for around $120 each you can purchase additional barrels in .22LR , 9MM , .45ACP .357 magnum etc ! A great way to get practice shooting your weapon with a .22 LR barrel then when needed just put on the .45/.410 barrel ! You can enjoy shooting your derringer all day without going into debt buying expensive .45 Colt ammo ! American Arms derringers are great , but avoid their ultra powerful derringers , like the .45/70 , .44 magnum and the 30-30 derringers ! I once owned their .44 magnum derringer and shooting it was the most ungodly handgun I ever fired ! Take a hammer and hit the web of your hand as hard as you can and that will give you an idea what shooting that monster was like ! I sold that gun after firing only 4 rounds ! And shooting the .45/70 is twice as bad as that ! Large built men have gotten broken wrists shooting that gun , one I knew had the gun (in .45/70) fly out of his hand and hit his wife in the head ! So for your own well being stay away from the very powerful derringers !

By: Thomas

Thomas — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:33:54 +0000

Dick , yes the Comanche does have a rifled barrel unfortunately , but that is the only way it is legal to sell , the performance of these shotgun derringers , the Comanche and the Judges would be so much better if their bores were smooth rather than rifled but that is the law . Good luck in Panama and hope you do not have to use your American Arms derringer in a dangerous self-defence situation . The .45 Colt and the .410 buckshot are excellent choices but take into account that derringers are an over and under weapon and they are not the most accurate weapon in the world and dangerous animals like lions move very fast ! If I were in Panama and I could carry a handgun for protection I would definately carry the Taurus Judge in stainless steel loaded with .45 Colt or .410 buckshot or an S&W model 686 stainless steel (7) shot .357 magnum !

By: dick

dick — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:58:45 +0000

Thomas

I agree totally about the birdshot.

The reason I like the American Derringer M-4 is that I can carry it in a belly pack with extra rounds (although reloading takes a lot of time and fooling around with this weapon) – It’s stainless steel since since I will be bringing it to the Republic of Panama (mosture and salt) and It’s hard for me to conceal a larger weapon since I’m slight of build.

Everybody wears a fanny pack of some sort down here so it’s easy to go un-noticed. The Argentine .410 with the 10″ barrel sounds like a great quail gun though. I wonder is the barrel rifled? At any rate the Muzzle velocity should be much greater from the 10″ barrel than from my derringer’s 4″ barrel. I figure somewhere around 800fps for either the .45 Colt or the 4×000 buckshot rounds from my derringer but I haven´t been able to chronograph it yet.

I will when I get back to the states in June.

Thanks for you great comments.

By: Thomas

Thomas — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:08:51 +0000

For all of you who enjoy shooting the Taurus Judge and the shotgun derringers , check out the .410/.45 Colt weapon called the “Comache” a single shot pistol with a 10 inch barrel made in Argentina , I have seen them used at the gun shows for under $200 even $140 a really nice little survival gun that shoots both the 2 and a half inch .410 and also the 3 inch and .45 Colt ! An interesting write up on this weapon in the lattest copy of the “Backwoodsman” magazine ! The Comache shoots more as a regular .410 shotgun than as a short barrelled derringer or the short barrelled Judge , much better shot penetration and farther range !

By: Thomas

Thomas — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 03:37:35 +0000

Dick : Just as the name implys #4 birdshot , it is definately for the birds ! I have shot .410 shot from both my Taurus Judge as well as my American Arms derringer and peneration was terrible , my air-gun has greater penetration ! Shooting the .410 shot all I got was alot of noise , recoil and nothing to show except for a few holes hardly any penetration , this was at 10-15 paces ! This could not penetrate heavy clothing if one were attack by an armed criminal in one of our Eastern cities in the winter or the skin of a dangerous animal as a bear ! The Judge and the .410 derringers are great if used with the proper ammo ! .410 buckshot or .45 Colt ! To be honest with everyone here , given the choice I would take an S&W model 442 airlite with plus p .38 ammo as my personal defence weapon to carry on the city streets or home defence over the Taurus Judge which is really more of a trail weapon !

By: Dick

Dick — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 23:55:04 +0000

Thomas -

Winchester is apparently trying to combine birdshot with buckshot. I have never tried this round but I think you’d be right in assuming the birdshot would have little penetration except at point blank or contact ranges.

I much prefer the FEDERAL 2-1/2″ 4×000 Buckshot round in my American Derringer model 4. Puts 4 9mm rounds in a 4″ circle EVERY TIME at 20′. Any closer and it would put a 3″ hole in whatever it hits! Good enough for government work!

The Federal 4 BIRDSHOT sucks as a persnal defense round in my opinion.

By: Thomas

Thomas — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 23:04:33 +0000

I see that Winchester is also offering a new self-defence .410 shotgun cartridge for the Taurus judge , looks like from the report that I seen in the Taurus 2010 magazine it looks better for self-defence than the Federal #4 shot as the Winchester has 12 BB sized shot and three cicular projectiles all in one cartridge ! Maybe good at relatively short range under 15 feet , but with a short barrelled revolver as with a short barrelled shotgun derringer penetration will be very poor !

By: Thomas

Thomas — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 03:36:18 +0000

I was at the Mesa Arizona gun show this past weekend and the Taurus Judge seems to be one of the most popular and desired weapons to own used Judges that were brought to the show by private sellers and reasonably priced were grabbed up in a hurry ! Also there was no .410 shotgun ammo or .45 Colt ammo for sale , usually at these shows there are semi-reasonably priced .45 Colt reloads for sale but not at the Mesa show ! I also noted alot of the older so-called cheap junk guns are also becoming rather expensive now ! The hot sale items besides the Taurus Judge were the new Rugers , the LCP and the LCR !

By: Thomas

Thomas — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:53:27 +0000

I can tell you from personal experience if you use a Taurus Judge the .45 Colt is the best round that a person can use for self-defence , the #4 .410 is good only at very close range and a marginal round at best for bob cats , rabid coyotes ! And the #6 thru #8 are worthless for self-defence against a human or an animal attack , as the range in a short barrelled revolver or a derringer is very limited with hardly any penetration to speak of , I once shot one of my .45/.410 derringers with the 2 and a half inch #6 .410 shot shell at a metal jar cap( about 3 inches in dia.)at around 10 paces and only 3 shots hit and went thru the cap ! Alot of noise , recoil but very little to show ! Carrying a Judge into a dangerous remote area (Alaska) with #6 or smaller shot is about as foolish as hunting a lion with a sling shot ! A very false sense of security ! Same with stopping a would be mugger or car-jacker , the small shot #6 and above would not even go thru heavy winter clothing ! So leave the small bird shot for the birds and use .45 Colt or buckshot ! Truely the best Taurus Judge to buy is the stainless steel model with a 6-inch barrel and the cylinder that takes the 3-inch .410 shell ! And Taurus refers to the 3 inch .410 as the 3 inch magnum , there is no 3 inch .410 magnum only 2 and half inch or 3 inch .410 !

By: Thomas

Thomas — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 02:51:27 +0000

A further comment , all of you who own or have an interest in the Taurus Judge check out the newest magazine that is on the magazine rack at your supermarket called Taurus 2010 , the magazine is devoted entirely to the newest Taurus handguns with a full article on the Taurus Judge , after reading the article if you do not own a Judge you will probably want to buy one !

By: Thomas

Thomas — Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:10:31 +0000

I wait until the Cross Roads gun show comes to Phoenix before I attempt to buy any .45 Colt ammo as there is only one gun store in the general area where I live and the ammo is $40 a box and up , at the gun show I have seen factory reloads for $20-$25 a box of fifty rounds ! There was an individual who used to sell reloaded ammo on Saturdays at the Prescott valley swap and had .45 Colt reloads for $15 , one of the few people I would ever buy reloads from as he had been doing reloads for many years , I am very careful about buying reloaded ammo as you never know if the person was qualified , nothing like turning your .45/.410 Taurus Judge into a magnum cannon that could blowup on you ! I have shot besides the Taurus Judge , the Bond Derringer , the American Arms derringer as well as the Master Piece Arms “Legend” derringer and I can truely say the Judge is superior to all of the derringers ! The most painful gun I ever shot was the American Arms derringer in .44 magnum , take a hammer and hit the web of your hand very hard and you will get an idea what the recoil was like shoting that monster ! I once seen an American Arms derringer for sale at a gun show in .45/70 ‘ with a “life time” supply of ammo 20 rounds ! The owner told me that was all I’d ever want to shoot out of that gun as the recoil was ungodly painful , he said he shot the derringer only once and the weapon flew out of his hand and hit his wife in the head ! Needless to say I passed up that “good deal” ! I had a big laugh once looking at the American Arms web site , they have a derringer for sale called the “Alaskan Survival” a derringer with one barrel chambered for the .45/70 and another barrel chambered for the .410 shotgun cartridge , well I don’t know about any of you I would not want to depend on a two shot derringer up in Alaska against a charging grizzle or polar bear ! The beast would be right on top of you with his teeth in your body before you could get off a fatal shot , if you didn’t break your wrist shooting the .45/70 ! The Master Piece Arms is another very painful weapon to shoot especially with the 3 inch .410 , the grips are way too small ! The best derringer in my opionion if you like derringers is the Bond Arms derringer , large grips and inter-changeable barrels you can shoot .22 LR. thru .45 Colt with many calibers in between , .38 special , 9MM , .45ACP etc ! You can practice shooting your bond derringer with cheap .22’s the best feature about this weapon

By: Rob Taylor

Rob Taylor — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 11:55:15 +0000

Thomas have you tried Sports Authority? I buy .45 LC there still for less than a dollar a bullet for C.A.S. loads (230gr or so Lead flat points) which are plenty of medicine for a bad guy. I got a couple of boxes of 50rd for $37 a piece. Not the cheapest but in my neck of the woods a better deal than any ACP I’ve seen.

By: Thomas

Thomas — Tue, 29 Dec 2009 03:46:43 +0000

I own the Taurus Judge and I feel it is a great weapon but know the gun’s limitations I have shot it numerous times and for self-defence I would only use either .410 buckshot , slugs or the .45 Colt the #6 and smaller shot is just bird shot and useless for self-defence as the penetration is far less than my air-gun , what I would love to see for the Taurus Judge would be an interchangeable cylinder for the .45 ACP , as .45 Colt ammo is hard to locate and when it is located the price is sky high ! Also be very aware that in certain parts of the U.S.(the State of California for one) the Taurus Judge as well as the shotgun derringers (American Arms and Bond Derringer) are illegal ! As a trail weapon here in Northern Arizona I carry my Taurus Judge with one round of .410 buckshot followed by one round of .45 Colt a great defence against man or beast !

By: gyrfalcon

gyrfalcon — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:03:55 +0000

“I can personally attest to the effectiveness of the Judge, Public Defender 2″ barrel, 2.5″ cylinder. Monday I had a home invasion. Being in a wheelchair I was pushed and dumped out of wheelchair and I fired 3 shots as I fell.” — Gary

Do you have any news stories you can reference this occurrence to? People on the Internet tend to embellish and lie about things so if this really happened I would like it if you could provide any sort of supporting information about the event.

By: Rob Taylor

Rob Taylor — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 01:27:42 +0000

First of I’m glad you’re OK and the crooks didn’t hurt you. This is an interesting story and affirmation that all rounds are dangerous in the right circumstances.

By: Gary

Gary — Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:03:34 +0000

I can personally attest to the effectiveness of the Judge, Public Defender 2″ barrel, 2.5″ cylinder. Monday I had a home invasion. Being in a wheelchair I was pushed and dumped out of wheelchair and I fired 3 shots as I fell. The first 2 were Federal Personal Defense 7/16 oz, 4 shot shells and the 3rd a solid lead .45 Colt, had 2 more following. Ironically, I was going to the range the next day, that’s why I had it out. I bought the gun 3 months ago and had never fired it. (Have other guns). I like others wasn’t sure how well this gun would work. Normally I would have had 3 (000) Buck Winchester shot shells with 3 .45 Colt JHP.
Results were instant death to the first man and the other man ran. Later found out he died of extensive heart damage. Evidently missed with the 3rd .45 as I was laying on floor by then. Distance 3-4 feet. Worked at this distance but at greater would definitely prefer the rounds I planned on using.
Lucky I was alert.

By: mitchshrader

mitchshrader — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:46:16 +0000

the gun sucks, the ammo velocity as published is misleading, the idea of SD with ‘less lethal’ ammo is easily accomplished IN AIRSOFT OR PAINTBALL GAMES but in the real world it’s dumber’n playing in traffic.

After one HELL of a lot of analysis I’ve determined that home-centered self defense is easiest accomplished with your main carry handgun FOR ANYONE WITH LITTLE OR NO FORMAL TRAINING. Whatever you shoot most regularly is likely the gun with which you have the best chance of surviving armed conflict.

Fewer rounds than a 1911, no track record, arguable marginal ammo, and who in the WORLD wants to TRAIN at a buck a round with a borderline, unproven, SILLY weapon…

By: Elvis

Elvis — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 06:52:51 +0000

I had a comment on the Judge. I recently bought one and I have to say I was a bit unsure whether it was going to do what I wanted it to do. What I wanted was a gun that my wife felt comfortable with. She doesn’t like guns very much and has always been scared of them. I bought her a S&W Airweight and she has never shot it. This concerned me because if she ever needed it, I was afraid she would empty the thing and miss whatever she was shooting at. After buying the Judge, I wanted to run it through some test of my own to see how it performed. It is the Pub. Defender model and I expected it to have much more recoil and really be kind of nasty to shoot. However, it was just the opposite. It does not kick bad at all. We started out shooting number 6 shells and we taped a target to a 55 gallon drum. We busted off one round from about 12 yards away and to my suprise, the target was filled. I would also like to say that while none of the pellets appeared to go through the 55 gal. drum, they did make a mess of it. There were pellet dents in the drum and deeper than I thought they would be. I have wondered since then if we had been closer, if they might have gone through it. I didn’t want to try it because of one coming back our way. She liked it and felt good about it. After we were done, I shot some buckshot and some # 4 shells in it and I will tell you for sure that I would not want to be on the other end. I shot have shot anything from filled milk jugs, pumpkins, and even shot a Coyote that jumped out on me and a friend at hunt camp. I had #6 in it and Coyote died. I didn’t tell my wife, but now it is loaded with a #4 then some buckshot and 1 45LC. From what I have seen about the gun, I have no doubt removing her snub nose 38 from the closet and replacing it with the JUDGE. Thanks for your time

By: Casey

Casey — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:35:53 +0000

Hey Y-Man i am new to the reloading arena, and have some questions about melting down birdshot into buckshot or slugs. Can you email me at Mabbus4 [ at ] hotmail [dot[ com. Thanks

By: Fuzzy

Fuzzy — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 04:04:46 +0000

I am a an OLD 410 fan and have used them for most everything since November 1950. A 410 slug will take down a deer, feral pig and a crook.
I’ve modified every type of shot and created some of my own for ducks.
I’ve purchased the Judge with a 6 and 1/2 inch barrel for home defense. First my house is fair size but most pistol are hard to aim when nerveous. Since my average room is 16 foot square, it is certain that if I fire the Judge at an intruder with #7 bird shot he will be immediately disoriented by multiple shot stinging his hide, the second shot will be #4s if he has not run out of the house and if he is still there he will have to deal with two standard 410 slugs. A fifth round will not be necessary.
More than likely, an intruder will be about 10 feet away if I am forced to shoot the #7s will hurt severly, the #4 even worse. The slugs hopefully wil not exit but distort as they do in a pig or deer. It will not be pretty.
At a military range I’ve put (7) seven 45 rounds in a 3 and 1/2 inch grouping consistantly on target for most of my military career. However, for home defense against an intruder the Judge is what I will use. I’ll have to Mop Up the mess, and the cops will follow a bloody trail to the Emergency room.
I will feel secure regardless. Do not ever under estimate the 410, it is deadly.

At 10 feet #7s get your attention and is a mind changing if on the reciving end.
Dick and DCK I enjoyed both yoour comments and test.

By: Dick

Dick — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:29:34 +0000

Tom:

It depends on how the amount of recoil you and/or your wife can COMFORTABLY handle.
I personally would not want to rely on #4 BIRDSHOT for self-defense if a better alternative is available.

Normal .410 loads are designed to be used in long-barreled shotguns.
000 BUCKSHOT is .36″ in diameter. The same as a .357/38/9mm round).

The 2/1/2″ Federal 4×000 BUCKSHOT makes an excellent round especially designed for short-barreled handguns as the powder charge and recoil is reduced. The buckshot is also copper plated. In my .45 Colt/.410 derringer with a 4″ barrel (including the chamber) it fires a pattern between 2″ and 3″ at 20′ The pattern at 40′ is about 12″. Good enough for snakes of all types!
(Visualize 4 or 5 of these impacting your chest all at once!)

Winchester makes a 3″ 5×000 buckshot .410 round (the buckshot is NOT PLATED) which has a more hefty recoil. The pattern with my derringer is about 9″ at 20′ using this round. It comes in boxes of 5.

Don’t try to push your wife into the 3″ .410 loads if she is even a bit shy about recoil. She won’t practice enough to become effective with the weapon.

The Winchester .45 Colt JHP is also a handful from a recoil standpoint.

The Federal 4×000 has more throw-weight (4×68 grains = 272 grains) and at “1200 fps” (according to Federal) as apposed to the 225 grain .45 Colt JHP at around 900 fps. I have also found that this .45 Colt round tends to tumble out of my short barreled derringer thus reducing it’s accuracy at longer than ” ‘cross the card table” ranges. This, I think, is because there’s only about 1″ of rifling. With the Judge, or other longer barreled handgun, it would probably stabilize properly.

Buy a box of each and try them. See which works best for you.

I have found that 8-10 rounds per session is about all I can handle using the .45 Colt, 2-1/2″ OR 3″ Winchester rounds. Using the 2-1/2″ Federal (either the #4 birdshot or 4×000 BUCKSHOT) I can manage up to about 15 rounds before my hand becomes sore and I get recoil shy.

ALSO keep in mind that your Judge weighs a lot more than my 15oz derringer. The perceived recoil will be somewhat less.

The secret here, I think, is that if you’re going to be in a firefight, get a full auto AK! So for a pistol, 2 to 5 rounds should be plenty. WHICH MEANS: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

The Federal 4×000 is difficult to get, but at http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=533166, you can order or backorder a box of 20.

Just my thoughts

By: tom

tom — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:36:48 +0000

I just purchased a 3 inch chamber judge with 3 inch barrel.

I saw federal handgun 2.5 inch # 4 in the store, but I wanted the extra power of 3 inch shells.

I purchased 3 inch # 4 H&H.

I want an effective gun for self defense and snakes for my wife to use.

I have not fired it yet, but put 3 410 shells and 2 45 long colts in the gun.

The long colts are expensive, so I will likely only shoot 410 shells out of the gun.

Federal, should provide detailed balistic for 410 shot that all in the industry can challenge.

Federal is a good company and should have good products, so let the industry put them to the test.

I spent $525.00 on the 3 inch chamber Judge, I hope I didn’t waste my money.

What 410 round, preferably in 3 inch shells should I use so my wife can have a personal defense gun in the house and I can defend against snake in our yard?

By: Steve

Steve — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 03:25:25 +0000

dck, very interesting. Thanks for posting your results.

By: dck

dck — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 03:20:31 +0000

So, today I got back to the range and fired 3/4 box (15 2-1/2″ Federal 4×000 buck .410 rounds. A bunch of them at 40′. This from a 4″ barreled American Derringer Model 4. That 4″ includes the chamber so the actual “barrel” is only about 1-1/2″. The pellets are copper plated as apposed to the Winchester 3×000 2-1/2″ and 5×000 3″ .410 rounds.

The powder load in the Federal rounds has obviously been lightened up (perhaps Federal is also usng a faster burnng powder) to compensate for the short barreled weapons the round is designed for (the Tarus Judge and other short barreled pistols).

Also, the grouping of the buckshot from the Federal rounds IS MUCH MORE COMPACT than the Winchester rounds. At 40′, 6-9″ groups can be expected! (only 1 group out of the 4 shots I fired was larger).

The recoil from the Federal rounds IN THIS WEAPON (weighs just under 1 pound) is very acceptable.

I found the 3″ 5×000 Winchester rounds to have an unacceptably harsh recoil (FOR ME) in this weapon.

But, remember, the Judge weighs 3 times as much as my little derringer.

So, I hereby revise my effective range estimates for the Federal 2-1/2″ 4×000 copper plated .410 rounds fired from a Model 4 American Derringer from 30′ out to 50′

Close enough for government work?

To Bugeater: If your lady is “cowering in the corner” then the Judge or a large caliber derrnger or any other large caliber weapon WILL NOT BE SUITABLE FOR HER! DON’T OVER-PURCHASE IN CALIBER. She won’t practice with it!

Pistol markmanship (or as my oldest daughter would say “markswomenshp”) does not come automatically. IT TAKES PRACTICE! IT TAKES REPITITON! TO TRAIN THE SHOOTERS HANDS/EYES AND MUSSELS TO WORK TOGETHER FOR ACCURATE BULLET PLACEMENT UNDER STRESS. PRAY AND SPRAY IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE SELF-DEFENSE TECHNIQUE!

By: bugeater

bugeater — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 22:33:45 +0000

what about a “buck & ball” handload in 3 inch in the judge 3 mag??
seems to me a woman cowering in the corner as a man breaks in the window and enters the house couldn’t hit anything most nights, giving the “buck” a copper plated BB load, with a “ball” of 000 .36 she just might hit something with 5 rounds across the room??

By: gyrfalcon

gyrfalcon — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 02:18:21 +0000

While birdshot is not applicable for self defense you could use a .410 Winchester Super-X “000″ Buckshot (5 Pellet) round.

I don’t think anyone wants to get hit with a 70 grain ball.

By: lee

lee — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:28:49 +0000

-Just getting into Krav Maga myself. Can you recommend and dvd’s or videos for me to watch?

By: 321klop

321klop — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:39:51 +0000

people keep say9ing that the judges rifling makes i shoot donuts 410 rounds have shot cups so the 410 round dont touch the rifling wtf you all are stupid

By: Dick

Dick — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:16:56 +0000

I was able to buy 3 boxes of FEDERAL PERSONAL DEFENSE 2-1/2″ .410 4×000 BUCKSHOT rounds late last week and got to the range yesterday.

NOTE:
The pellets are copper plated thus reducing the deformation as they travel through the barrel.

I only had time to fire a couple of rounds but here are the results:

At 21′ (7 yards) 1 barrel fired a pattern 3″ group and the other a 2″ wide by 7″ high group with 3 of the pellets grouping at 2″ x 3″ and closer to the aim point than the 4th.

The wadding or “cup” also tears a hole in a paper target that’s not well backed-up).

The recoil was less than the .45 Colt rounds or the Winchester 2-1/2″ 3×000 Buckshot fired previously and was quite acceptable.

So, refering to my previous post, above:

1. If you are sure that you can fire accurately under pressure, I would have to recommend the Federal 4×000 rounds. Placing 3-4 .36″, 68gr pellets traveling at “1200fps” according to Federal over a 2″ x 3″ area at 21′ should make a huge hole nearly clean through a bad-guy. An awful mess that would bleed out as fast as anything I can imagine. At 10′ it should cause even more concentrated damage.

This round should be great out to 30′ or so (if fired accurately) which is about as far as you are likely to ever have to use a pistol in a self-defense situaton.

2. If your are NOT so sure that you can get off an accurate shot under pressure (a first round hit on a man-sized target) AND you can handle the recoil from the Winchester 3″ 5×000 Buck, then I would use it rather than the Federal as the spread is greater and has one more pellet (25% greater weight throw) but 25′-30′ is probably the maximum effective comfort range .

THE SIX MAIN RULES OF SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING ARE:

PRACTICE!, PRACTICE! PRACTICE!
FRONT-SIGHT!, FRONT-SIGHT!, FRONT-SIGHT!

Would that Federal try a 3″ 6-7×000 Buckshot load for the Judge and American Derringer M-4.

These are just my observations and opinions.

Comments?

By: Y-Man

Y-Man — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:33:53 +0000

@TMCC
You are right! I did some more shooting with my steel ball bearings and then thoroughly/ meticulously inspected the forcing cone, and the barrel. Obviously: the steel balls have caused a few glancing dents in the forcing cone, and some rough streaks down the bore of my shotgun. Of course: I have discontinued my “modifying” antics. (I got rid of all the ammo stock I had modified.)
I do not have access to equipment/ facilities to re-work/ modify regular lead loads: I’ll stick to the regular AAA stuff for now: at least my shotgun is not irreparably damaged by my “irresponsible” ammo modification.
Thanks!

By: TMCC

TMCC — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:43:49 +0000

Be careful using steel shot. Most lead shot loads have powder that is too fast for steel loads. Steel shot does not pass through either the forcing cone or the choke of a shotgun as easily as lead. You can get dangerous pressure spikes!

By: Steve

Steve — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:09:14 +0000

Dick, thanks for the comment. Very interesting. Please let us know how the Federal 4×000 works out for you.

By: Dick

Dick — Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:05:33 +0000

Ok, I’e got to weigh in on this again

I have fired 4 different loads from my 4″ barreled (includng the chamber portion) American Derringer Model 4 .45 Colt/.410 (2-1/2″ OR 3″). The results at 21′ were as follows:

#4 .410 BIRDSHOT Federal 2-1/2″ (“Personal Defense”) — about 60 pellets ABSOLUTLY NOT ADAQUATE FOR PERSONAL DEFENSE except for possibly aganst the occasional dive-bombing, nest protecting blackbird!

3×000 .410 BUCKSHOT Winchester 2-1/2″ — a good 12″ pattern of 3 .36″ 68gr centered but a little high of the aim point. I think I’ jerking this a little and even dry-firing (with snap-caps) shows the hammer fall brings the muzzle up about 6″ this distance so that may account for the slightly high pattern.

5×000 .410 BUCKSHOT Winchester 3″ — a GREAT 12″ pattern of 5 .36″ 68gr centered but a little high … see above. THE BEST DAMNED CLOSE-UP AND PERSONAL PERSONAL DEFENSE HANDGUN ROUND I CAN IMAGINE! It will certianly clear the hallway, shoot throuth the car door if necessary (from the inside) to discourage a car jacking, and if there are 2 bad guys, you have another round waiting for him just in case he didn’t notice what happened to his buddy! I do not by any means recommend this round/weapon combo for someone who is a bit timid about recoil. After 6 rounds, it HURTS! It is not a firefight weapon nor was it intended to be. If you think you’r going to be in one, get the proper license and real AK-47! It’s what they are made for. It’s also

.45 Colt Winchester 225gr JHP — 12″ groups a little high and left. Great if you can hit even a stationary target at 20′ with ANY HANDGUN in the dark, while under stress or perhaps while being fired at (being fired at is also classified as being under stress)!

I have a box of 4×000 410 Federal Personal Defense rounds coming late this week and next Monday (after my hand heals) I’ll try out a few. I suspect this is the round I will settle on.

Dick Getty

By: Steve

Steve — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:27:16 +0000

Y-man, good job!

By: Y-man

Y-man — Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:19:33 +0000

@Matt Groom,
I did the steel ball bearing swap: just got back from the “range”: worked perfectly!. I was firing at a light steel plate target at about 30 feet, with a Turkish semi-auto 12-gauge. Steel plate was PERFORATED! (Videos available, Steve…might mail you some…)
I modified and fired 4 rounds (Varying sizes of ball bearings, filled up a bit with bird-shot to get the weight up and stop the steel balls rattling loosely): but I noticed that the time I put the modified round directly in the magazine (rather than behind a non-modified round) the little raised guide “bump” in the magazine pressed into the wadding/ seal I put in to hold the balls in, and some grains of powder escaped. Still fired okay though. Left my bore DIRTY!
What am I saying? If there’s nothing but BB bird-shot like we have here in Nigeria: replace with ball bearings in a safe and proper manner for SD. Get good grade steel ball bearings, weigh to ensure the replacements are same or less than the weight of the removed lead bird-shot, and ensure you seal properly (I used a light covering of adhesive on a cut-out paper wad.) Also; when loading the weapon: put an un-modified round into the magazine first; BEFORE the modified: this provides a flat surface for the face of the modified rounds to rest upon.
I must confess though: the first round was fired from a “remote firing rig” (I basically found a tree with the right kind of horizontal branch; zip-tied the shotgun to said branch, and used a strong nylon twine to fire it! Recoil broke the zip-ties! Shotgun got quite dirty, so I had to do a quick field cleaning…)
I will be getting some AAA shot soon, that could serve as my primary HD/SD ammo (Nothing like Buckshot in Nigeria!), while I keep my BB for the “bitty birds”!

By: Cymond

Cymond — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 04:31:59 +0000

I’m no fan of birdshot for self defense, as per the Box O’ Truth. Sure, they might work, but I want to improve my odds as much as possible. However, I want to point out that Federal is also making a load with 4 pellets of #000 buckshot. That would seem to be more appropriate.

I do think the Judge could make a dandy woods gun, much like the Bond Arms Snake Slayer derringers.

By: Steve

Steve — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 23:15:57 +0000

jdun1911, good timing. Thanks for the link

Let’s put some false rumors to rest:

1. Birdshot is a good self defense load.

This is false for several reasons. The main reason is that no birdshot load will reach the required 12 inches of penetration needed for STOPPING a bad guy from whatever he is doing to threaten your life. Birdshot makes a very nasty, yet shallow wound, and will not reach the vital organs or CNS.

“Might” birdshot work? Sure. But why depend on “might” when “better” is available.

Use birdshot for little birds. Use buckshot for bad guys.

By: jdun1911

jdun1911 — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:02:28 +0000

What do you know, Old Painless just posted a report on Buckshot at AR15.com.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=886723

By: caposkaw

caposkaw — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:07:32 +0000

mmmm…
the federal birdshot seem a tentative for a dissuasive ammunition with a limitated lesive power.
the first shot with the birdshot and the successives with 45 Long Colt..
when the federal will produce a cartridge like this:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg213-e.htm
(not silenced, obviously)
i suppose that it is the right ammunition for the jugde.

By: Matt Groom

Matt Groom — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:20:55 +0000

@ Y-Man:
Prohibitions against shotgun shot size, such as is apparently practiced in Nigeria and in Denmark, are incredibly silly. Whatever you take out of the shell can easily be replaced since unlike a pistol or rifle, it is not caliber dependent. It is weight dependent, however. The safest and probably easiest thing to do in your case would be to find larger shot of sufficient roundness, such as steel ball bearings used in certain industrial applications, and match the weight of the lead shot to the replacement pellets, or use slightly less. If the replacement projectiles weigh more, you’ll increase the pressure when you fire it, and that could potentially be dangerous.

If you have access to a good heat source, you could probably use the shot that you remove to cast larger sized buckshot out of lead. I don’t know if these things can be bought in Nigeria, but there are several molds made for fishing weights that would make very effective projectiles for shotguns. Fishing weights (the small ones that are made of soft lead that you clamp onto the fishing line) should work pretty well. Keep in mind that roundness of the projectile will equate to better accuracy, and depending on the range you intend to use it at, that may or may not be important. A buckshot mold is quite possibly the easiest mold to make, and any machinist should be able to make one pretty easily if you just show them pictures of a bullet mold.

The hardest part will be re-crimping your shot shells, which without specialized shotshell reloading dies can be a nightmare (I’ve actually tried this!). If you have access to this equipment, or have found a method that works, then you’re in business. Good luck!