At 10 feet #7s get your attention and is a mind changing if on the reciving end.
Dick and DCK I enjoyed both yoour comments and test.

It depends on how the amount of recoil you and/or your wife can COMFORTABLY handle.
I personally would not want to rely on #4 BIRDSHOT for self-defense if a better alternative is available.

Normal .410 loads are designed to be used in long-barreled shotguns.
000 BUCKSHOT is .36″ in diameter. The same as a .357/38/9mm round).

The 2/1/2″ Federal 4×000 BUCKSHOT makes an excellent round especially designed for short-barreled handguns as the powder charge and recoil is reduced. The buckshot is also copper plated. In my .45 Colt/.410 derringer with a 4″ barrel (including the chamber) it fires a pattern between 2″ and 3″ at 20′ The pattern at 40′ is about 12″. Good enough for snakes of all types!
(Visualize 4 or 5 of these impacting your chest all at once!)

Winchester makes a 3″ 5×000 buckshot .410 round (the buckshot is NOT PLATED) which has a more hefty recoil. The pattern with my derringer is about 9″ at 20′ using this round. It comes in boxes of 5.

Don’t try to push your wife into the 3″ .410 loads if she is even a bit shy about recoil. She won’t practice enough to become effective with the weapon.

The Winchester .45 Colt JHP is also a handful from a recoil standpoint.

The Federal 4×000 has more throw-weight (4×68 grains = 272 grains) and at “1200 fps” (according to Federal) as apposed to the 225 grain .45 Colt JHP at around 900 fps. I have also found that this .45 Colt round tends to tumble out of my short barreled derringer thus reducing it’s accuracy at longer than ” ‘cross the card table” ranges. This, I think, is because there’s only about 1″ of rifling. With the Judge, or other longer barreled handgun, it would probably stabilize properly.

Buy a box of each and try them. See which works best for you.

I have found that 8-10 rounds per session is about all I can handle using the .45 Colt, 2-1/2″ OR 3″ Winchester rounds. Using the 2-1/2″ Federal (either the #4 birdshot or 4×000 BUCKSHOT) I can manage up to about 15 rounds before my hand becomes sore and I get recoil shy.

ALSO keep in mind that your Judge weighs a lot more than my 15oz derringer. The perceived recoil will be somewhat less.

The secret here, I think, is that if you’re going to be in a firefight, get a full auto AK! So for a pistol, 2 to 5 rounds should be plenty. WHICH MEANS: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

The Federal 4×000 is difficult to get, but at http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=533166, you can order or backorder a box of 20.

Just my thoughts

I saw federal handgun 2.5 inch # 4 in the store, but I wanted the extra power of 3 inch shells.

I purchased 3 inch # 4 H&H.

I want an effective gun for self defense and snakes for my wife to use.

I have not fired it yet, but put 3 410 shells and 2 45 long colts in the gun.

The long colts are expensive, so I will likely only shoot 410 shells out of the gun.

Federal, should provide detailed balistic for 410 shot that all in the industry can challenge.

Federal is a good company and should have good products, so let the industry put them to the test.

I spent $525.00 on the 3 inch chamber Judge, I hope I didn’t waste my money.

What 410 round, preferably in 3 inch shells should I use so my wife can have a personal defense gun in the house and I can defend against snake in our yard?

The powder load in the Federal rounds has obviously been lightened up (perhaps Federal is also usng a faster burnng powder) to compensate for the short barreled weapons the round is designed for (the Tarus Judge and other short barreled pistols).

Also, the grouping of the buckshot from the Federal rounds IS MUCH MORE COMPACT than the Winchester rounds. At 40′, 6-9″ groups can be expected! (only 1 group out of the 4 shots I fired was larger).

The recoil from the Federal rounds IN THIS WEAPON (weighs just under 1 pound) is very acceptable.

I found the 3″ 5×000 Winchester rounds to have an unacceptably harsh recoil (FOR ME) in this weapon.

But, remember, the Judge weighs 3 times as much as my little derringer.

So, I hereby revise my effective range estimates for the Federal 2-1/2″ 4×000 copper plated .410 rounds fired from a Model 4 American Derringer from 30′ out to 50′

Close enough for government work?

To Bugeater: If your lady is “cowering in the corner” then the Judge or a large caliber derrnger or any other large caliber weapon WILL NOT BE SUITABLE FOR HER! DON’T OVER-PURCHASE IN CALIBER. She won’t practice with it!

Pistol markmanship (or as my oldest daughter would say “markswomenshp”) does not come automatically. IT TAKES PRACTICE! IT TAKES REPITITON! TO TRAIN THE SHOOTERS HANDS/EYES AND MUSSELS TO WORK TOGETHER FOR ACCURATE BULLET PLACEMENT UNDER STRESS. PRAY AND SPRAY IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE SELF-DEFENSE TECHNIQUE!

See also my 2 other posts, above

Questions?? Comments??

I don’t think anyone wants to get hit with a 70 grain ball.

NOTE:
The pellets are copper plated thus reducing the deformation as they travel through the barrel.

I only had time to fire a couple of rounds but here are the results:

At 21′ (7 yards) 1 barrel fired a pattern 3″ group and the other a 2″ wide by 7″ high group with 3 of the pellets grouping at 2″ x 3″ and closer to the aim point than the 4th.

The wadding or “cup” also tears a hole in a paper target that’s not well backed-up).

The recoil was less than the .45 Colt rounds or the Winchester 2-1/2″ 3×000 Buckshot fired previously and was quite acceptable.

So, refering to my previous post, above:

1. If you are sure that you can fire accurately under pressure, I would have to recommend the Federal 4×000 rounds. Placing 3-4 .36″, 68gr pellets traveling at “1200fps” according to Federal over a 2″ x 3″ area at 21′ should make a huge hole nearly clean through a bad-guy. An awful mess that would bleed out as fast as anything I can imagine. At 10′ it should cause even more concentrated damage.

This round should be great out to 30′ or so (if fired accurately) which is about as far as you are likely to ever have to use a pistol in a self-defense situaton.

2. If your are NOT so sure that you can get off an accurate shot under pressure (a first round hit on a man-sized target) AND you can handle the recoil from the Winchester 3″ 5×000 Buck, then I would use it rather than the Federal as the spread is greater and has one more pellet (25% greater weight throw) but 25′-30′ is probably the maximum effective comfort range .

THE SIX MAIN RULES OF SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING ARE:

PRACTICE!, PRACTICE! PRACTICE!
FRONT-SIGHT!, FRONT-SIGHT!, FRONT-SIGHT!

Would that Federal try a 3″ 6-7×000 Buckshot load for the Judge and American Derringer M-4.

These are just my observations and opinions.

Comments?

I have fired 4 different loads from my 4″ barreled (includng the chamber portion) American Derringer Model 4 .45 Colt/.410 (2-1/2″ OR 3″). The results at 21′ were as follows:

#4 .410 BIRDSHOT Federal 2-1/2″ (”Personal Defense”) — about 60 pellets ABSOLUTLY NOT ADAQUATE FOR PERSONAL DEFENSE except for possibly aganst the occasional dive-bombing, nest protecting blackbird!

3×000 .410 BUCKSHOT Winchester 2-1/2″ — a good 12″ pattern of 3 .36″ 68gr centered but a little high of the aim point. I think I’ jerking this a little and even dry-firing (with snap-caps) shows the hammer fall brings the muzzle up about 6″ this distance so that may account for the slightly high pattern.

5×000 .410 BUCKSHOT Winchester 3″ — a GREAT 12″ pattern of 5 .36″ 68gr centered but a little high … see above. THE BEST DAMNED CLOSE-UP AND PERSONAL PERSONAL DEFENSE HANDGUN ROUND I CAN IMAGINE! It will certianly clear the hallway, shoot throuth the car door if necessary (from the inside) to discourage a car jacking, and if there are 2 bad guys, you have another round waiting for him just in case he didn’t notice what happened to his buddy! I do not by any means recommend this round/weapon combo for someone who is a bit timid about recoil. After 6 rounds, it HURTS! It is not a firefight weapon nor was it intended to be. If you think you’r going to be in one, get the proper license and real AK-47! It’s what they are made for. It’s also

.45 Colt Winchester 225gr JHP — 12″ groups a little high and left. Great if you can hit even a stationary target at 20′ with ANY HANDGUN in the dark, while under stress or perhaps while being fired at (being fired at is also classified as being under stress)!

I have a box of 4×000 410 Federal Personal Defense rounds coming late this week and next Monday (after my hand heals) I’ll try out a few. I suspect this is the round I will settle on.

Dick Getty

I do think the Judge could make a dandy woods gun, much like the Bond Arms Snake Slayer derringers.

Let’s put some false rumors to rest:

1. Birdshot is a good self defense load.

This is false for several reasons. The main reason is that no birdshot load will reach the required 12 inches of penetration needed for STOPPING a bad guy from whatever he is doing to threaten your life. Birdshot makes a very nasty, yet shallow wound, and will not reach the vital organs or CNS.

“Might” birdshot work? Sure. But why depend on “might” when “better” is available.

Use birdshot for little birds. Use buckshot for bad guys.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=886723

If you have access to a good heat source, you could probably use the shot that you remove to cast larger sized buckshot out of lead. I don’t know if these things can be bought in Nigeria, but there are several molds made for fishing weights that would make very effective projectiles for shotguns. Fishing weights (the small ones that are made of soft lead that you clamp onto the fishing line) should work pretty well. Keep in mind that roundness of the projectile will equate to better accuracy, and depending on the range you intend to use it at, that may or may not be important. A buckshot mold is quite possibly the easiest mold to make, and any machinist should be able to make one pretty easily if you just show them pictures of a bullet mold.

The hardest part will be re-crimping your shot shells, which without specialized shotshell reloading dies can be a nightmare (I’ve actually tried this!). If you have access to this equipment, or have found a method that works, then you’re in business. Good luck!

http://www.commonwealthcriminaljusticeacademy.com/articles/HandgunStoppingPower.pdf

“All handgun rounds are a compromise.”

Ah. So your logic is that since even the most potent of handgun rounds is a compromise, compromising some more on top of that is just dandy? “Why bother with a compromise round like a 9mm or .45, why not just pack .22 short” – something like that?

“If it is between a hit with birdshot packing 700 ft.lbs. and miss with a .45 colt I will take the hit.
Obviously you want the next couple of chambers to hold the .45.”

Hold on. If the birdshot is effective, why chamber .45 rounds at all? If the birdshot is ineffective, why bother with it at all?

Do remember that at contact ranges, the birdshot travels in one clump, and once it spreads out it has also lost so much kinetic energy as to be fairly harmless to a human target.

“Talk of “not useful for defense” is irrational.”

Oh? Seems to me that all the reasoned discussion is coming from the sceptical side, and those claiming shooting people with birdshot is the way to go seem to resort to the “well I wouldn’t want to get shot with it”-level of arguments. (I would not personally like to get a paper cut, but that doesn’t mean I’d advocate the use of a piece of paper as a self-defense instrument. There is a difference between “unpleasant” and “stops a goal-oriented attacker fast”.)

You can not depend on a calibre with less than optimal terminal ballistics. Sure, it’s possible under specific circumstances that the .410 might do the job but if you are in a life-threatening situation you cannot bet your life- and perhaps that of your family- on a cartridge that may or may not work. Using birdshot may only serve to wound or enrage a violent criminal- and to use the average shots per gunfight figure- do you want to be involved in a shoot-out where you fire one or two shots intended to bring down small birds at a well-built, violent criminal while he’s firing a 9mm at you? Chances are you won’t make it to the .45 Colt cartridges further around the cylinder.

Federal promoting birdshot as a self-defence round are, in my opinion, encouraging reckless behaviour which could get innocent people killed. The Judge is a nifty gun with some unique applications but birdshot is for birds- .45 Colt is for two-legged predators.

Where I live (Denmark) , 4 mm pellets are the biggest ones permitted for Hunting (buckshots are illegal) ..

thats another thing ,but:

From a full length 12 gauge shotgun, I’ve seen what 4 mm pellets in a good hard load does to a deer. When the distance is below 10-15 meters, and if your shot placement is right, a 60 pound deer can be instantly incapitated with 4 mm pellets. I had one where both front legs were shattered from a too low first shot. second one tore trough lungs and ribs.

I know that deers are not humans. But I dont want to get hit with a 36 gram shot travelling about 400 m/s filled with 4 mm pellets. It’s not optimal, but if it kills deers and foxes at up to 15 yards, it’s not useless against humans.

But then again, thats 12 gauge and not 410. And its full size gun, not pocket size.

(I’m pretty sure that word was meant to be “interested”. )

I dont think this is exactly rocket science. The FBI bases their standard on certain factors and if you agree with those factors (mainly, that you don’t always get a clear frontal shot but rather close quarters combat is a hectic and chaotic business, thus you might have to shoot through the attackers arm, or at an oblique angle, etc.) then their insistence of minimum penetration of about 12″, give or take, makes sense. (’Tis (12″ minimum penetration) more like a guide line than a rule. ) Also, even with a clear frontal shot, to reach vital organs such as the heart and lungs, you have to penetrate bone – those pellets were how big and heavy, again? Seems like a pretty clear case of ammunition failing to reach acceptable minimum standard to be considered effective, to me.

mskiles314:

“1. Numerous instances of self defense involving handguns are limited to brandishing the weapon only. And the Judge has a formidable profile.

2. I’ve heard from self defense trainers that handgun engagements last only 1-3 shots.”

According to your point 1, you would be happy to have a piece of soap carved into a firearm shape and painted black as your self-defense weapon, then?

Just like any other kind of psychological stop may take place, relying on that to happen is to rely on never meeting an opponent with any amount of determination. In other words, only preparing to fight the easiest possible opponents. Hardly a robust survival strategy, I would think.

As for your point 2, either find better trainers or learn to pay better attention to them. Anyone claiming a firefight will last 1-3 rounds, period, is talking out of their ass. That 1-3 rounds may or may not be an average number of rounds fired, but believing that the average is what will happen and training according to that assumption (as in, “the average gun fight is only 1-3 shots fired so I won’t be needing a reload”), is training to only win 50% of possible fights. Kind of the same as relying on a psychological stop, come to think of it… If you’re happy with the thought that if you ever have to defend yourself you have an at least 50% chance of losing, then I guess you’re good to go, but personally, I want my odds to be waaayyyyy the hell better. Also, as with any other statistic, an average alone, without other information, is a useless bit of trivia. Before you can draw any conclusions about the data, you need to know if the rest of the data points are close ot the average, or all over the place – in other words, you need to know what the standard deviation is.

I guess that if you go bigger than the Buckshot class, you enter “Roundball” class and Slugs. I was definitely thinking of #4 buck, which is probably the smallest shot I’ve ever used other than the #7 1/2 birdshot they sell at Walmart. Weird.

In that case, bird shot is not useful for self defense. That’s kinda a “duh” sort of thing, me thinks.

Out of a .410 snubbie? Ridiculous.

Dick Cheney shot his friend with bird shot at a distance of 30ft IIRC and it didn’t do much damage.

I like to do some iking and woodsloafing. I like a snub nosed double action revovlever for that, and I have thought about (but passed on) the Judge. With #4 shot you have a decent all purpose round for what you’ll most likely be shooting at (feral dogs, coyotes, snakes) that still can run off the pot farmer you stumble accross. I’m with mskiles314 on a 2 #4s 3.45s loading. Much more utilitarian in the woods than a Glock.

That said I have a .410 and the buckshot rounds are pretty good and everywhere, so I don’t see the point.

Because they are a bit different.

As for the round….it appears to be completely inadequate. It MIGHT work at contact distances. Maybe. Using birdshot at close ranges in even a full sized shotgun is a risky endeavor, and as you’ve mentioned the Judge is quite a bit shorter.

Personally, if all I had was the Judge I’d either be shooting slugs or .45 colts out of it. #4 buckshot out of a .410 might work within 10 or so yards, but the range of self defense situations can’t always be predicted.

I had considered getting a Judge but I viewed the shotshell as a snake load. I guess it could be considered a goblin deterrent but I would rather have the 45 or a slug. The .410 cal is only cheap if you reload, which I do. Factory .410 ammo is easily 2-3 times the cost of 12ga or 20ga. It would be interesting to try working up a load that would have enough velocity out of the 2.5″ barrel.

7/16oz lead in a 2 1/2″ .410 is a little heavier than normal so pressures are going up. That pellet count definitely says that it is #4 birdshot which is quite different than #4 buckshot.

Standard load would be 1/2 oz. I was thinking that handloading for personal defense with #4 buckshot (0.24″ diameter) might be interesting. Take it a little less than 1/2oz (7 pellets instead of 10) and load it up to try to get 1100fps at the muzzle. The use of buffering material would probably be needed as I do not think that there is a wad designed for less that 1/2oz.

I love the .410 for dove season here. There is nothing better than watching the expression of people shooting (or should I say, who can’t shoot at all) a 12ga as I limit out and they are still looking for bird number 3 with two boxes of ammo gone. The .410 is an excellent small game hunting round. It just isn’t as easy. I usually don’t bother to tell the other hunters that I shoot that 870 at the skeet range.

That seems unlikely to penetrate clothing.
I’ll stick to the buck sized pellets.

I don’t get the donut shaped pattern either. Wierd.

Fun gun to shoot though.

My only useful addition to this discussion: our enemies in the sandbox average, what, 7″ front to back, vs. 10″+ for the corn-fed boys over here?

If you are talking about shooting the average T, or maybe a little kid, this would make sense. Otherwise, it seems like a good way to escalate hostilities in a direction opposite to what you intended.