Comments on: Birdshot for self defense? Federal say yes http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 23:10:59 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Thomas http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-66488 Thomas Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:46:05 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-66488 Yes I have heard of the XPD, and even shot it once out of my Thompson Contender, yes it is a great defence round ! But since I had so many of the other .410 shot shells in #6 and higher I wanted to see if I could get just a bit more punch in the .410 Judge, and of course in an emergency if all I had were the #6 to#8 shot I would like something more powerful ! Well today I cut off the top of the 3 inch .410 and poured out the #6 shot and replaced it with a small plastic capsule filled with steel BB's, packed it inside the .410 shell and sealed it ! Also tryed the same thing with another shell except used a few .177 air-gun pellets instead ! Both the BB's and the .177 air-gun pellets went completely thru a wooden cabinet door that was and inch thick, shot at 20 feet ! Now the next thing I want to try is using moon or half moon clips with the .45ACP in the Judge ! Yes I have heard of the XPD, and even shot it once out of my Thompson Contender, yes it is a great defence round ! But since I had so many of the other .410 shot shells in #6 and higher I wanted to see if I could get just a bit more punch in the .410 Judge, and of course in an emergency if all I had were the #6 to#8 shot I would like something more powerful ! Well today I cut off the top of the 3 inch .410 and poured out the #6 shot and replaced it with a small plastic capsule filled with steel BB’s, packed it inside the .410 shell and sealed it ! Also tryed the same thing with another shell except used a few .177 air-gun pellets instead ! Both the BB’s and the .177 air-gun pellets went completely thru a wooden cabinet door that was and inch thick, shot at 20 feet ! Now the next thing I want to try is using moon or half moon clips with the .45ACP in the Judge !

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]]> By: hicusdicus http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-66459 hicusdicus Mon, 04 Jul 2011 17:57:28 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-66459 Thomas! Are you short of money? XPD is extremely lethal and you can practice with the cheapest bird shot. The judge is a personal self defense weapon that can be used successfully with minimal practice. Its the average Joe or Jane's boom of doom. The judge was designed to shoot the .45 long colt to keep it legal. It is a sawed off shot gun. From buck and ball to bird shot, a few rounds in the face will end the confrontation and start the legal process. Thomas! Are you short of money? XPD is extremely lethal and you can practice with the cheapest bird shot. The judge is a personal self defense weapon that can be used successfully with minimal practice. Its the average Joe or Jane’s boom of doom. The judge was designed to shoot the .45 long colt to keep it legal. It is a sawed off shot gun. From buck and ball to bird shot, a few rounds in the face will end the confrontation and start the legal process.

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]]> By: Thomas http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-66410 Thomas Mon, 04 Jul 2011 01:46:55 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-66410 This past weekend I had the good fortune to be able to pickup a used stainless steel Taurus Judge and got to try it out this morning unfortunately I though this Judge also could shoot the 3 inch .410 shot shell but it does not, when I noted a quarter of an inch of the shell coming out the front of the cylinder ! Unfortunately the #4 shells I wanted to try out were 3 inch shells, while the 2 and a half inch shells were #8 shot ! The weapon performed perfectly, penetration was not that great, I plan to cut off a quarter of an inch from the 3 inch shells and they will fit in the cylinder ! What I have tryed previously in my Bond derringer is to cut open a .410 shell and pour out the small #8 shot and replace it with fired .22 caliber bullets or .177air-gun pellets, I have noted much better penetration but poor shot pattern, but at close range a better self-defence load than the small .410 shot ! Two questions : Has anyone removed the shot from the .410 shells and replaced it with steel air-gun BB's ? Will it harm the rifling on the Taurus Judge ? (2) I have read on the internet that persons have shot the .45 ACP out of the Judge by using moon or half-moon clips, has anyone tryed this ? As anyone who owns a Judge knows that .45 Colt ammo is very expensive, while .45 ACP can be held for more than half the cost ! This past weekend I had the good fortune to be able to pickup a used stainless steel Taurus Judge and got to try it out this morning unfortunately I though this Judge also could shoot the 3 inch .410 shot shell but it does not, when I noted a quarter of an inch of the shell coming out the front of the cylinder ! Unfortunately the #4 shells I wanted to try out were 3 inch shells, while the 2 and a half inch shells were #8 shot ! The weapon performed perfectly, penetration was not that great, I plan to cut off a quarter of an inch from the 3 inch shells and they will fit in the cylinder ! What I have tryed previously in my Bond derringer is to cut open a .410 shell and pour out the small #8 shot and replace it with fired .22 caliber bullets or .177air-gun pellets, I have noted much better penetration but poor shot pattern, but at close range a better self-defence load than the small .410 shot ! Two questions : Has anyone removed the shot from the .410 shells and replaced it with steel air-gun BB’s ? Will it harm the rifling on the Taurus Judge ? (2) I have read on the internet that persons have shot the .45 ACP out of the Judge by using moon or half-moon clips, has anyone tryed this ? As anyone who owns a Judge knows that .45 Colt ammo is very expensive, while .45 ACP can be held for more than half the cost !

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]]> By: Hicusdicus http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-54398 Hicusdicus Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:54:30 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-54398 Lets stop all this second grade play ground banter. Insulting you was not my intent just colorful chit chat so I apologize. I am 74 years old. If a person with the physical strength to over power me and cause severe injury threatens to hit me with his fists I can legally point a fire arm at them and threaten to shoot if they don't back off.. If they insist on advancing I can shoot to kill. If I shoot them in the face with bird shot it shows my intent was not to kill. Intent goes along way in a court room. Penetration, now there is a word with a lot of misinterpretation. I want to discuss only one kind of penetration. The kind I have in mind is the sort that pisses off thousands of nerve endings in the face and causes excruciating pain. It does not require much penetration. I have also been lead to believe that blind people in extreme pain are not much of a threat. What happens after that will require some real knowledge based judgment. Before you carry on any farther I have been there. Homicide detectives, interrogation rooms multiple felony charges, a bailiff, bail bondsmen,prosecuting attorneys , grand juries, incredibly expensive personal attorneys, a judge and much time in a court room. I ended up prevailing but only on account of blind luck . Blind luck can over rule talent , intelligence and wealth but it is extremely fickle. I have a concealed carry permit so that shows it went well. The wear and tear on my health did not fair so well. You certainly may do things as you see fit but you will be the one to reap the rewards.I want to sincerely say.. Before it comes your turn to grab the tiger by the tail be sure you have all your ducks in a row. Lets stop all this second grade play ground banter. Insulting you was not my intent just colorful chit chat so I apologize. I am 74 years old. If a person with the physical strength to over power me and cause severe injury threatens to hit me with his fists I can legally point a fire arm at them and threaten to shoot if they don’t back off.. If they insist on advancing I can shoot to kill. If I shoot them in the face with bird shot it shows my intent was not to kill. Intent goes along way in a court room. Penetration, now there is a word with a lot of misinterpretation. I want to discuss only one kind of penetration. The kind I have in mind is the sort that pisses off thousands of nerve endings in the face and causes excruciating pain. It does not require much penetration. I have also been lead to believe that blind people in extreme pain are not much of a threat. What happens after that will require some real knowledge based judgment. Before you carry on any farther I have been there. Homicide detectives, interrogation rooms multiple felony charges, a bailiff, bail bondsmen,prosecuting attorneys , grand juries, incredibly expensive personal attorneys, a judge and much time in a court room. I ended up prevailing but only on account of blind luck . Blind luck can over rule talent , intelligence and wealth but it is extremely fickle. I have a concealed carry permit so that shows it went well. The wear and tear on my health did not fair so well. You certainly may do things as you see fit but you will be the one to reap the rewards.I want to sincerely say.. Before it comes your turn to grab the tiger by the tail be sure you have all your ducks in a row.

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]]> By: gyrfalcon http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-41523 gyrfalcon Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:34:08 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-41523 "rozyredtoes- For someone who agrees to disagree you seem to spend a lot of time insulting people. I get that you’re worried about prison time. If that’s the case then don’t fire your weapon at another person. Discharging a firearm at another person is automatically assault with a deadly weapon unless you can prove that you fired in self defense. " -- Will +1 to your comments. I'm glad someone takes the time to debate with an armchair cowboy who obviously doesn't have a clue what he was talking about. While his wife and in-laws appear to be educated that doesn't appear to be his forte. Generally my reading comprehension is quite good. If I choose not to reply to an idiotic comment about going to jail/legal battles in using a firearm that's my choice and has nothing to do with comprehension. Anyone with a bit of brains knows even pointing a firearm at someone could be considered a felony by law enforcement. If you're going to fire ineffective ammo (or even blanks) you're just compounding the situation. Having a living perpetrator in the courtroom is real good idea Mr. Einstein (aka: Rozyredtoes). “rozyredtoes- For someone who agrees to disagree you seem to spend a lot of time insulting people. I get that you’re worried about prison time. If that’s the case then don’t fire your weapon at another person. Discharging a firearm at another person is automatically assault with a deadly weapon unless you can prove that you fired in self defense. ” — Will

+1 to your comments. I’m glad someone takes the time to debate with an armchair cowboy who obviously doesn’t have a clue what he was talking about. While his wife and in-laws appear to be educated that doesn’t appear to be his forte.

Generally my reading comprehension is quite good. If I choose not to reply to an idiotic comment about going to jail/legal battles in using a firearm that’s my choice and has nothing to do with comprehension. Anyone with a bit of brains knows even pointing a firearm at someone could be considered a felony by law enforcement. If you’re going to fire ineffective ammo (or even blanks) you’re just compounding the situation. Having a living perpetrator in the courtroom is real good idea Mr. Einstein (aka: Rozyredtoes).

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]]> By: Will http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-41037 Will Sun, 22 Aug 2010 01:24:08 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-41037 Rozyredtoes- You accuse me of confirmation bias. I am indeed biased; I have a bias against anything that is either scientifically unproven, has been documented as not working, and any combination thereof. My criteria for a weapon for any kind of personal defense are as follows. 1) The ammuntion needs to be able to penetrate 12-18 inches of bare ballistic gelatin as well as through commonly encountered barriers (heavy clothing (4 layers of denim in lab tests), sheet metal, auto glass, plywood, and wall board) with good expansion and weight retention. 2) The ammuntion needs to be readly obtainable. 3) The weapon needs to be reliable. My standards of being capable of firing 2,000 rounds with no malfuntions (that are the fault of the weapon) without cleaning or lubrication. (By this I mean after cleaning and lubricating the weapon when I first get it, I expect it to be able to not need another cleaning or lubricatoin for 2,000 rounds of use before I'll carry it. Once this is achieved, I'll have a more routine cleaning schedule.) 4) Parts should be obtainable for said weapon. 5) If the weapon is a handgun, I should be able to conceal it without having to make extreme changes to my wardrobe. And example of an extreme change would be needing a full-length trench coat because I decided to CCW a Desert Eagle for some un-Godly reason. I hold my weapons and any potential addtions to my safe to very strict standards. And before you bitch at be for being lazy with cleaning, I've seen far too many Berettas, Glocks, SIG-Sauers, S&Ws, H&Ks, CZs, etc. make it to 2,000 rounds without cleaning and lubrication for me to expect a modern pistol to NOT complete such a challenge. Hunting and "fun" guns I don't hold to such standards since I'm not likely to rely on them to save my life, but I do appreciate that many of them are capable of being pressed into service if need be. (One of my "fun" guns is a reproduction of the Colt SAA chambered in .44-40 as well as a Stoeger Coach Gun in 12 ga). As for military members being able to carry their weapons everywhere... The moment I see military personnel walking around off duty with their M4s, M240B's, M203 rigs, and M1014s slung up, then I'll believe that bit. Not once have I ever claimed to be a lawyer. I've just spent a lot of my time speaking to both defense attorneys and prosecuting DAs to whom I am thankful they were willing to sit down with me during their spare time and discuss the law with me. If you want to know the material I read, here are some links for you to the writings of Doctor Gary Roberts: a physician who is one of the best authorities on ballistics in the USA. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26028 http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56486 http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914 http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887 I'll close my comment by saying that I'm finished with arguing this matter since no matter how many times I can point out scientific and anecdotal evidence to the contrary that in your opinion birdshot is the Hammer of Thor and I've wasted enough of my life here. No matter what you use, train hard and stay safe. Rozyredtoes- You accuse me of confirmation bias. I am indeed biased; I have a bias against anything that is either scientifically unproven, has been documented as not working, and any combination thereof. My criteria for a weapon for any kind of personal defense are as follows.

1) The ammuntion needs to be able to penetrate 12-18 inches of bare ballistic gelatin as well as through commonly encountered barriers (heavy clothing (4 layers of denim in lab tests), sheet metal, auto glass, plywood, and wall board) with good expansion and weight retention.

2) The ammuntion needs to be readly obtainable.

3) The weapon needs to be reliable. My standards of being capable of firing 2,000 rounds with no malfuntions (that are the fault of the weapon) without cleaning or lubrication. (By this I mean after cleaning and lubricating the weapon when I first get it, I expect it to be able to not need another cleaning or lubricatoin for 2,000 rounds of use before I’ll carry it. Once this is achieved, I’ll have a more routine cleaning schedule.)

4) Parts should be obtainable for said weapon.

5) If the weapon is a handgun, I should be able to conceal it without having to make extreme changes to my wardrobe. And example of an extreme change would be needing a full-length trench coat because I decided to CCW a Desert Eagle for some un-Godly reason.

I hold my weapons and any potential addtions to my safe to very strict standards. And before you bitch at be for being lazy with cleaning, I’ve seen far too many Berettas, Glocks, SIG-Sauers, S&Ws, H&Ks, CZs, etc. make it to 2,000 rounds without cleaning and lubrication for me to expect a modern pistol to NOT complete such a challenge. Hunting and “fun” guns I don’t hold to such standards since I’m not likely to rely on them to save my life, but I do appreciate that many of them are capable of being pressed into service if need be. (One of my “fun” guns is a reproduction of the Colt SAA chambered in .44-40 as well as a Stoeger Coach Gun in 12 ga).

As for military members being able to carry their weapons everywhere… The moment I see military personnel walking around off duty with their M4s, M240B’s, M203 rigs, and M1014s slung up, then I’ll believe that bit. Not once have I ever claimed to be a lawyer. I’ve just spent a lot of my time speaking to both defense attorneys and prosecuting DAs to whom I am thankful they were willing to sit down with me during their spare time and discuss the law with me.

If you want to know the material I read, here are some links for you to the writings of Doctor Gary Roberts: a physician who is one of the best authorities on ballistics in the USA.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26028

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56486

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

I’ll close my comment by saying that I’m finished with arguing this matter since no matter how many times I can point out scientific and anecdotal evidence to the contrary that in your opinion birdshot is the Hammer of Thor and I’ve wasted enough of my life here. No matter what you use, train hard and stay safe.

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]]> By: Fuzzy 39 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-41003 Fuzzy 39 Sat, 21 Aug 2010 03:56:32 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-41003 I have a Judge tracker (6 inch barrel). With bird shot your face is hamburger, and with 000shot you bleed out. Here in Florida, you enter my home on foot and attack me we carry you out on a slab. My wife and I mop up the mess. No charges, no court and it is no crime. Florida's castlelaw. Thank you Jeb Bush. Fuzzy out. I have a Judge tracker (6 inch barrel).

With bird shot your face is hamburger,
and with 000shot you bleed out.
Here in Florida, you enter my home on foot and attack me we carry you out on a slab. My wife and I mop up the mess. No charges, no court and it is no crime. Florida’s castlelaw. Thank you Jeb Bush.

Fuzzy out.

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]]> By: Rozyredtoes http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40955 Rozyredtoes Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:59:41 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40955 It is legal to carry carbines and a lot of people do, its called the army. Have you actually ever fired a judge. I don't know why I asked, you could not have made the statements you made if you had ever fired one. In your case who knows. As far as toxins and chemicals go you need to explain this all to the military since they won't use them because of their unreliability. You probably know something they don't. The most lethal self defense is a flame thrower except it ruins the furniture and stinks up the house. Now on the reading comprehension issue lets see if your cognitive abilities can pick up on this next statement. Confirmation bias, A way in which we seek to find confirmatory evidence in support of already existing beliefs and ignore or reinterpret evidence to the contrary. Since you are now practicing law you should know that the law is not black and white there is always mitigating circumstances in your case it would it would be extremely insulting to say. Unless you are more than one person I have not been trying to insult you. It is very difficult to have a conversation with you with out you feeling insulted since you prattle on with no real knowledge of what you are talking about. You are a prime example of the saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Ok! I have a good friend who was a expert witness for the state for fire arms and ballistics. He has three engineering degrees was a special forces soldier and military sniper. Before all this he was a candidate for the Olympic shooting team for the USA. This was all a long time ago he is now in his mid 60's He totally disagreed with me on the judge. He started shooting out in west Texas before he could even get an erection his Dad owned a 5000 acre ranch. He could shoot the ass out of a gnat at three hindered yards. I pointed that not all of us have a personal pistol range in the basement of their 8000 square foot house. He finally agreed that for an unskilled person who is not used to violence a hand held legal sawed of shot gun with five rounds of .410 would be the best choice for close up self defense weapon a person could have that is if they did not have any lethal toxins or chemicals. I will close by stating that the primary weapon is not what is in you hands it is what is between your ears. Let us hope that your ears are not touching each other. I want to apologize for the insulting contents of these statements. They were made to show you that my other comments were not insulting its just how you interpreted them. It is legal to carry carbines and a lot of people do, its called the army. Have you actually ever fired a judge. I don’t know why I asked, you could not have made the statements you made if you had ever fired one. In your case who knows. As far as toxins and chemicals go you need to explain this all to the military since they won’t use them because of their unreliability. You probably know something they don’t. The most lethal self defense is a flame thrower except it ruins the furniture and stinks up the house. Now on the reading comprehension issue lets see if your cognitive abilities can pick up on this next statement. Confirmation bias, A way in which we seek to find confirmatory evidence in support of already existing beliefs and ignore or reinterpret evidence to the contrary. Since you are now practicing law you should know that the law is not black and white there is always mitigating circumstances in your case it would it would be extremely insulting to say. Unless you are more than one person I have not been trying to insult you. It is very difficult to have a conversation with you with out you feeling insulted since you prattle on with no real knowledge of what you are talking about. You are a prime example of the saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Ok! I have a good friend who was a expert witness for the state for fire arms and ballistics. He has three engineering degrees was a special forces soldier and military sniper. Before all this he was a candidate for the Olympic shooting team for the USA. This was all a long time ago he is now in his mid 60′s He totally disagreed with me on the judge. He started shooting out in west Texas before he could even get an erection his Dad owned a 5000 acre ranch. He could shoot the ass out of a gnat at three hindered yards. I pointed that not all of us have a personal pistol range in the basement of their 8000 square foot house. He finally agreed that for an unskilled person who is not used to violence a hand held legal sawed of shot gun with five rounds of .410 would be the best choice for close up self defense weapon a person could have that is if they did not have any lethal toxins or chemicals. I will close by stating that the primary weapon is not what is in you hands it is what is between your ears. Let us hope that your ears are not touching each other. I want to apologize for the insulting contents of these statements. They were made to show you that my other comments were not insulting its just how you interpreted them.

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]]> By: Will http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40897 Will Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:00:12 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40897 rozyredtoes- For someone who agrees to disagree you seem to spend a lot of time insulting people. I get that you're worried about prison time. If that's the case then don't fire your weapon at another person. Discharging a firearm at another person is automatically assault with a deadly weapon unless you can prove that you fired in self defense. You talk about scoring headshots without a sight picture and that "at close range the Judge guarentees a hit". At the ranges you describe, the pellets will be a dense knot with little spread so you still have to aim the gun against a small and highly mobile target that is very likely to be moving when you begin your resistance. When I said Forensic Ballisticians with doctorates, I was talking about people who are doctors of forensic science and specialize in ballistics. Sorry for being unclear. I also highly recommend reading what Dr Roberts has to say since he is a medical doctor who has a great deal of knowledge in the field of terminal ballistics. Now for loading your Judge so the first payload will be birdshot with the remaining 4 being buckshot; if birdshot is as good as you say it is, then why not load all five chambers with birdshot and forget the buckshot? Finally my "apparent lack of reading comprehension". I understand that you're worried about going to prison. But what I don't get is why you believe that discharging a load of birdshot is considered less deadly (or more politically correct or whatever) than bullets; as far as the law is concerned shooting someone is shooting someone and you have to prove that you acted in self defense regardless so your argument is a moot point. Handguns are poor manstoppers to begin with; their greatest strenth is thier portability compared to a carbine. Lets face it: if it were legal for us to carry carbines everywhere a lot of us would do so. Also, if the goal were to kill someone, a firearm would not be my first choice since there are toxins and chemicals that exhibit as close to 100% lethality as possible. rozyredtoes- For someone who agrees to disagree you seem to spend a lot of time insulting people. I get that you’re worried about prison time. If that’s the case then don’t fire your weapon at another person. Discharging a firearm at another person is automatically assault with a deadly weapon unless you can prove that you fired in self defense. You talk about scoring headshots without a sight picture and that “at close range the Judge guarentees a hit”. At the ranges you describe, the pellets will be a dense knot with little spread so you still have to aim the gun against a small and highly mobile target that is very likely to be moving when you begin your resistance.

When I said Forensic Ballisticians with doctorates, I was talking about people who are doctors of forensic science and specialize in ballistics. Sorry for being unclear. I also highly recommend reading what Dr Roberts has to say since he is a medical doctor who has a great deal of knowledge in the field of terminal ballistics.

Now for loading your Judge so the first payload will be birdshot with the remaining 4 being buckshot; if birdshot is as good as you say it is, then why not load all five chambers with birdshot and forget the buckshot?

Finally my “apparent lack of reading comprehension”. I understand that you’re worried about going to prison. But what I don’t get is why you believe that discharging a load of birdshot is considered less deadly (or more politically correct or whatever) than bullets; as far as the law is concerned shooting someone is shooting someone and you have to prove that you acted in self defense regardless so your argument is a moot point. Handguns are poor manstoppers to begin with; their greatest strenth is thier portability compared to a carbine. Lets face it: if it were legal for us to carry carbines everywhere a lot of us would do so.

Also, if the goal were to kill someone, a firearm would not be my first choice since there are toxins and chemicals that exhibit as close to 100% lethality as possible.

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]]> By: Rozyredtoes http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40838 Rozyredtoes Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:37:41 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40838 Gy4falcon,I am not interested in non lethal weapons. I am interested in not going to prison.or losing every thing I have to attorneys. You and Will and other folks on this site seem to have a reading comprehension problem. We don't need any help on how to look things up. My wife is a geo scientist and her dad is a retired rocket scientist and one of the top thermoplastic research engineers. Education is not one of her short comings. It was Will not I who brought up the PHD in ballistics. My wife was wondering which university offered a PHD in ballistics. Neither one of us has ever heard of this sort of PHD. I am pretty sure it requires some kind of ballistics to get a wound. Return fire after being hit in the face with a load of bird shot, you have to be joking. There is no way you are going to return effective fire if you are blind and in pain and shock. After a follow up with 20 balls of 000 buck you will most likely stop breathing. Bullets are iffy but a head shot is almost 99 percent effective and a judge at close range will almost guarantee a hit even under extreme stress. I have 3 38 special bullet holes in me one bounced off my heart and tore through my left lung and one swirled around in my intestines.I drove my self to the hospital and was pronounced DOA . After I recovered I was arrested and had to post 80,000 in bail and another 140,000.00 in legal bills before it all want away. You do not know what you are talking about, I do. You need to study not blather with other people about how the law really works. There is a site called learn about guns you should go there and read some of the comments made by retired law enforcement and attorneys about the misconceptions people have about how the law works. It might in the future save you a whole lot of grief. Gy4falcon,I am not interested in non lethal weapons. I am interested in not going to prison.or losing every thing I have to attorneys. You and Will and other folks on this site seem to have a reading comprehension problem. We don’t need any help on how to look things up. My wife is a geo scientist and her dad is a retired rocket scientist and one of the top thermoplastic research engineers. Education is not one of her short comings. It was Will not I who brought up the PHD in ballistics. My wife was wondering which university offered a PHD in ballistics. Neither one of us has ever heard of this sort of PHD. I am pretty sure it requires some kind of ballistics to get a wound. Return fire after being hit in the face with a load of bird shot, you have to be joking. There is no way you are going to return effective fire if you are blind and in pain and shock. After a follow up with 20 balls of 000 buck you will most likely stop breathing. Bullets are iffy but a head shot is almost 99 percent effective and a judge at close range will almost guarantee a hit even under extreme stress. I have 3 38 special bullet holes in me one bounced off my heart and tore through my left lung and one swirled around in my intestines.I drove my self to the hospital and was pronounced DOA . After I recovered I was arrested and had to post 80,000 in bail and another 140,000.00 in legal bills before it all want away. You do not know what you are talking about, I do. You need to study not blather with other people about how the law really works. There is a site called learn about guns you should go there and read some of the comments made by retired law enforcement and attorneys about the misconceptions people have about how the law works. It might in the future save you a whole lot of grief.

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]]> By: gyrfalcon http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40778 gyrfalcon Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:19:05 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40778 rozyredtoes -- "Gryfalcon. The point is, bird shot is not necessarily lethal. A load of bird shot in the head will give you a moment to decide just how far you want to take this unpleasant event just in case you have made a mistake." If people are interested in less-lethal/non-lethal self-defense tools they should look into alternatives other than firearms. rozyredtoes -- "Mr Cheny’s friend was rushed to the hospital..." If someone shot me with birdshot I'm sure I would want to go to the hospital to have it removed. If they were attacking me I'm pretty damn sure I could return fire and kill them before the bird-shot could fully disable me. rozyredtoes -- "I in no way said that a ballistics expert was wrong but I am skeptical of them being a hundred percent correct, it is a fluid science. PHD in ballistics, that a new one to me I always thought that it was a PHD in physics first then a study of ballistics. Before ballistics can get involved one has to hit what he is shooting..." Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center... Look him up on Google if you want. Ballistics don't even come into play, just the wounds caused. rozyredtoes — “Gryfalcon. The point is, bird shot is not necessarily lethal. A load of bird shot in the head will give you a moment to decide just how far you want to take this unpleasant event just in case you have made a mistake.”

If people are interested in less-lethal/non-lethal self-defense tools they should look into alternatives other than firearms.

rozyredtoes — “Mr Cheny’s friend was rushed to the hospital…”

If someone shot me with birdshot I’m sure I would want to go to the hospital to have it removed. If they were attacking me I’m pretty damn sure I could return fire and kill them before the bird-shot could fully disable me.

rozyredtoes — “I in no way said that a ballistics expert was wrong but I am skeptical of them being a hundred percent correct, it is a fluid science. PHD in ballistics, that a new one to me I always thought that it was a PHD in physics first then a study of ballistics. Before ballistics can get involved one has to hit what he is shooting…”

Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center… Look him up on Google if you want. Ballistics don’t even come into play, just the wounds caused.

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]]> By: Will http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40621 Will Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:25:21 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40621 rosyredtoes- I gave you the opportunity to "agree to disagree" a while back but you persisted. However you and I are unlikely to change our minds on this subject so we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on. You go on relying on an "ouch" response to stay safe while I'll make sure they are physiologically incapacitated in order to keep me and mine in one piece. rosyredtoes- I gave you the opportunity to “agree to disagree” a while back but you persisted. However you and I are unlikely to change our minds on this subject so we’ll just have to agree to disagree and move on. You go on relying on an “ouch” response to stay safe while I’ll make sure they are physiologically incapacitated in order to keep me and mine in one piece.

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]]> By: rozyredtoes http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40608 rozyredtoes Sun, 15 Aug 2010 16:41:28 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40608 Will,How did bears and PHD's get into this conversation? Conformation bias is when you specifically look for anything that will conform your bias and gloss over things that do not so they do not register in your memory banks. Reading comprehension is another issue. I am glad to hear that you have situational awareness I developed that before they had a buzz word for it by being a rent collector in the black ghettos of Houston Texas for 9 years walking around at all hours with up to 5000.00 dollars on my person. I in no way said that a ballistics expert was wrong but I am skeptical of them being a hundred percent correct, it is a fluid science. PHD in ballistics, that a new one to me I always thought that it was a PHD in physics first then a study of ballistics. Before ballistics can get involved one has to hit what he is shooting at and the chances of that can get pretty iffy in a split second high excitement encounter. It is good to hear that your state has the castle laws, that is one of the better laws that was ever enacted. One must still show that the killing was justified or it is still considered murder. Something you might want to investigate is how many homicides each year in the US go unsolved. The reason I point this out is that the friends and relatives of the deceased will most likely never be interviewed after the person who killed their friend is found face down in a pool of blood and what if some attorney manages to come up with some type of civil rights violation which over shadows the castle laws, it could happen! Mr Cheny's friend was rushed to the hospital I wonder how it would have worked out if the first round had been followed by 4 more rounds of 000 buck there is no overwhelming evidence that bird shot is ineffective. You are not correct in the statement that leaving the scene automatically makes you guilty it depends on the circumstances. One may retreat from what one perceives to be a life threatening situation. Lets leave it at this, you do what you want and I will follow my own counsel and may we all live happily ever after. Will,How did bears and PHD’s get into this conversation? Conformation bias is when you specifically look for anything that will conform your bias and gloss over things that do not so they do not register in your memory banks. Reading comprehension is another issue. I am glad to hear that you have situational awareness I developed that before they had a buzz word for it by being a rent collector in the black ghettos of Houston Texas for 9 years walking around at all hours with up to 5000.00 dollars on my person. I in no way said that a ballistics expert was wrong but I am skeptical of them being a hundred percent
correct, it is a fluid science. PHD in ballistics, that a new one to me I always thought that it was a PHD in physics first then a study of ballistics. Before ballistics can get involved one has to hit what he is shooting at and the chances of that can get pretty iffy in a split second high excitement encounter. It is good to hear that your state has the castle laws, that is one of the better laws that was ever enacted. One must still show that the killing was justified or it is still considered murder. Something you might want to investigate is how many homicides each year in the US go unsolved. The reason I point this out is that the friends and relatives of the deceased will most likely never be interviewed after the person who killed their friend is found face down in a pool of blood and what if some attorney manages to come up with some type of civil rights violation which over shadows the castle laws, it could happen! Mr Cheny’s friend was rushed to the hospital I wonder how it would have worked out if the first round had been followed by 4 more rounds of 000 buck there is no overwhelming evidence that bird shot is ineffective. You are not correct in the statement that leaving the scene automatically makes you guilty it depends on the circumstances. One may retreat from what one perceives to be a life threatening situation. Lets leave it at this, you do what you want and I will follow my own counsel and may we all live happily ever after.

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]]> By: Will http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40569 Will Sat, 14 Aug 2010 13:44:36 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40569 rozyredtoez- One nice thing about the state I live in: if someone is forced to kill in self defense and they are aquitted in a criminal trial, then they are protected from civil suit by the law. I already "spend a lot of time looking over my shoulder". It's called situational awareness and it's what allows me to leave a potentially dangerous situation without needing violence. You say that if there are no witnessess you'll leave the scene. How can you be certain there are no witnessess? Murphy's Law is a real pain in the ass (what can go wrong will go wrong). If you leave the scene, you just made your defense all the harder as in the eyes of prosecuting DAs, "flight equals guilt" and you'll be hard pressed to prove otherwise. You accuse me of confirmation bias when I've spent and continue to spend a great deal of my free time talking to (and reading the articles/essays) of ballisticians many of whom hold doctorates in their field. Are you honestly telling me that you know more about ballistics than someone who is a DOCTOR of the field? I agree that things don't work out the way they're supposed to which is why I won't use birdshot unless the only alternative is being completely unarmed. The overwhelming evidence is that birdshot is unlikely to be effective against determined attackers. I already mentioned former Vice President Cheney's hunting accident. Bear in mind that he shot his friend with a full length shotgun and not a Judge. You said that you live up in the Ozarks so I've a question for you, do you feel that birdshot would be effective if you somehow stumbled across a bear? rozyredtoez- One nice thing about the state I live in: if someone is forced to kill in self defense and they are aquitted in a criminal trial, then they are protected from civil suit by the law. I already “spend a lot of time looking over my shoulder”. It’s called situational awareness and it’s what allows me to leave a potentially dangerous situation without needing violence. You say that if there are no witnessess you’ll leave the scene. How can you be certain there are no witnessess? Murphy’s Law is a real pain in the ass (what can go wrong will go wrong). If you leave the scene, you just made your defense all the harder as in the eyes of prosecuting DAs, “flight equals guilt” and you’ll be hard pressed to prove otherwise.

You accuse me of confirmation bias when I’ve spent and continue to spend a great deal of my free time talking to (and reading the articles/essays) of ballisticians many of whom hold doctorates in their field. Are you honestly telling me that you know more about ballistics than someone who is a DOCTOR of the field?

I agree that things don’t work out the way they’re supposed to which is why I won’t use birdshot unless the only alternative is being completely unarmed. The overwhelming evidence is that birdshot is unlikely to be effective against determined attackers. I already mentioned former Vice President Cheney’s hunting accident. Bear in mind that he shot his friend with a full length shotgun and not a Judge.

You said that you live up in the Ozarks so I’ve a question for you, do you feel that birdshot would be effective if you somehow stumbled across a bear?

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]]> By: rozyredtoes http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40549 rozyredtoes Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:47:31 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40549 Will, I said if there was no place to go. Let me clarify this. My wife and I made the decision that if there were no witness to the act of either one of us taking someones life in a so called self defense event we would leave the scene. You are sort of right about everything you have stated and you have gotten this information from talking to people. Quit talking to people and start reading. I already know everything you have stated and then some since I have already been through it. The only right you have is to an attorney and a jury trial everything else is a crap shoot. If at the very best you are no billed and go home their is are still the friends and relatives of the deceased and their attorneys . No matter what the circumstances in their eyes you will have to pay with either money or blood. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder. The comment if you have to draw your gun is your decision that no one may agree with after the act. Jesus is the only person that supposedly returned from the dead and look at the crap storm that has caused. Dead people must be answered for.You are apparently reading or I might say not reading what I said. You seem to have a bad case of confirmation bias if you don't know what that means find out. Warning shot? Who said anything about warning shot. If you have to go in front of a jury you will have to show them that it was not your intent to kill but to stop the person from causing any more damage. Their have been people convicted in self defense cases because they used ammunition the jury thought was used by the defendant because he wanted to kill. Fair or not they were convicted of homicide. You really need to stop typing and start reading. As far as your ballistics go I have personalty seen a pedestrian hit with a car so hard he went over 20 feet in the air and began his lawsuit from the hospital bed. I had to testify at the hearing. I know a person who was shot three times with a 38 special in the heart gut and arm and drove himself to the hospital and was pronounced dead on arrival. He rose from the dead and later found one of his attackers and satisfied the grim reaper. I don't really disagree with anything you say Or what some of these other folks say except that things don't always work out the way they are supposed to. If I was Wyatt Earp instead of and old person with cataracts , arthritis and The flexibility of molasses in January I would most likely have a .45 with a high cap mag but I am not. From what experience I have gotten out of life I have come to the conclusion that the biggest deterrent that a human can have to stop them from continuing on a give course of action is mind searing pain. A whole lot of bits of metal that will turn his face into mush will accomplish this. Unless he is of course the man in the iron mask. Will, I said if there was no place to go. Let me clarify this. My wife and I made the decision that if there were no witness to the act of either one of us taking someones life in a so called self defense event we would leave the scene. You are sort of right about everything you have stated and you have gotten this information from talking to people. Quit talking to people and start reading. I already know everything you have stated and then some since I have already been through it. The only right you have is to an attorney and a jury trial everything else is a crap shoot. If at the very best you are no billed and go home their is are still the friends and relatives of the deceased and their attorneys . No matter what the circumstances in their eyes you will have to pay with either money or blood. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder. The comment if you have to draw your gun is your decision that no one may agree with after the act. Jesus is the only person that supposedly returned from the dead and look at the crap storm that has caused. Dead people must be answered for.You are apparently reading or I might say not reading what I said. You seem to have a bad case of confirmation bias if you don’t know what that means find out. Warning shot? Who said anything about warning shot. If you have to go in front of a jury you will have to show them that it was not your intent to kill but to stop the person from causing any more damage. Their have been people convicted in self defense cases because they used ammunition the jury thought was used by the defendant because he wanted to kill. Fair or not they were convicted of homicide. You really need to stop typing and start reading. As far as your ballistics go I have personalty seen a pedestrian hit with a car so hard he went over 20 feet in the air and began his lawsuit from the hospital bed. I had to testify at the hearing. I know a person who was shot three times with a 38 special in the heart gut and arm and drove himself to the hospital and was pronounced dead on arrival. He rose from the dead and later found one of his attackers and satisfied the grim reaper. I don’t really disagree with anything you say Or what some of these other folks say except that things don’t always work out the way they are supposed to. If I was Wyatt Earp instead of and old person with cataracts , arthritis and The flexibility of molasses in January I would most likely have a .45 with a high cap mag but I am not. From what experience I have gotten out of life I have come to the conclusion that the biggest deterrent that a human can have to stop them from continuing on a give course of action is mind searing pain. A whole lot of bits of metal that will turn his face into mush will accomplish this. Unless he is of course the man in the iron mask.

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]]> By: Will http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40494 Will Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:02:19 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40494 rozyredtoes- You just mentioned in the last post addressed to me that if forced to kill in self defense that you'd "fire up the backhoe and leave calling 911 to the timid and fearful". Well here's a newsflash for you: covering up a killing automatically takes situation that ends in a manslaughter charge at worst to Second Degree Murder at best and if the prosecuting DA is good enough, they'll likely try to get you for First Degree Murder. If one is forced to defend themselves the FIRST thing to do after the fight is over is to stay put and call the police. You do have the Constitutional right to remain silent and have an attorney present for questioning. A good defense attorney should be more than capable of pointing out to a jury that you fired in fear for your life when no other options were available; just look at how many thugs walk because of their attorneys' skill. Tell me; where do you get your legal advice? I've spoken to several law enforcement officers, attorneys, forensic techs, and trauma doctors on various matter: officers and attorneys for the legal aspects; forensic techs and doctors for what weapons and ammuntion are truly effective. The Glock 19 is a common pistol in police holsters; if it's not issued, it is on the authroized list. The Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +p load is issued to the NYPD and many other major police departments and its a proven load both in the lab and on the street. The kubaton is my less lethal option along with skill in hand-to-hand fighting. My overall point is that if someone has threatened me to the point to where I'm about to be killed and have to draw a gun, then deadly force is justified. Also, in most jusisdictions, discharging a firearm is automatically classified deadly force so your "warning round of birdshot" is a wasted shot at best. rozyredtoes- You just mentioned in the last post addressed to me that if forced to kill in self defense that you’d “fire up the backhoe and leave calling 911 to the timid and fearful”. Well here’s a newsflash for you: covering up a killing automatically takes situation that ends in a manslaughter charge at worst to Second Degree Murder at best and if the prosecuting DA is good enough, they’ll likely try to get you for First Degree Murder. If one is forced to defend themselves the FIRST thing to do after the fight is over is to stay put and call the police. You do have the Constitutional right to remain silent and have an attorney present for questioning. A good defense attorney should be more than capable of pointing out to a jury that you fired in fear for your life when no other options were available; just look at how many thugs walk because of their attorneys’ skill. Tell me; where do you get your legal advice? I’ve spoken to several law enforcement officers, attorneys, forensic techs, and trauma doctors on various matter: officers and attorneys for the legal aspects; forensic techs and doctors for what weapons and ammuntion are truly effective.

The Glock 19 is a common pistol in police holsters; if it’s not issued, it is on the authroized list. The Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +p load is issued to the NYPD and many other major police departments and its a proven load both in the lab and on the street. The kubaton is my less lethal option along with skill in hand-to-hand fighting. My overall point is that if someone has threatened me to the point to where I’m about to be killed and have to draw a gun, then deadly force is justified. Also, in most jusisdictions, discharging a firearm is automatically classified deadly force so your “warning round of birdshot” is a wasted shot at best.

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]]> By: rozyredtoes http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40450 rozyredtoes Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:12:10 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40450 Gryfalcon. The point is, bird shot is not necessarily lethal. A load of bird shot in the head will give you a moment to decide just how far you want to take this unpleasant event just in case you have made a mistake. Lawsuits are unpleasant be not nearly as much as homicide charges. That bird shot is backed up by 4 rounds of .45 or 000 buck, what ever your pleasure. In fact salt or sand might be a better choice than bird shot, painful but reparable. If you should happen to get into a lethal confrontation there is most likely a 50, 50 chance that it could have been avoided and that makes you a murderer and subject to all the unpleasantness that goes with it. Gryfalcon. The point is, bird shot is not necessarily lethal. A load of bird shot in the head will give you a moment to decide just how far you want to take this unpleasant event just in case you have made a mistake. Lawsuits are unpleasant be not nearly as much as homicide charges. That bird shot is backed up by 4 rounds of .45 or 000 buck, what ever your pleasure. In fact salt or sand might be a better choice than bird shot, painful but reparable. If you should happen to get into a lethal confrontation there is most likely a 50, 50 chance that it could have been avoided and that makes you a murderer and subject to all the unpleasantness that goes with it.

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]]> By: gyrfalcon http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40422 gyrfalcon Wed, 11 Aug 2010 04:52:02 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40422 It seems like a lot of people making comments are confusing birdshot with larger shot such as BB's, #1-#4, 00, etc... The larger the shot it more penetration power you're going to get. So unless any of you have data relating to birdshot here what I'm going to say: Birdshot is for Birds (and crazy people who don't care about self-defense) Larger shot for People/Deer/etc Maybe some of the confusion is between #4 birdshot that is 0.13" sized pellets, and #4 buck which is about twice the size at 0.24"? Heck load up some sand or salt in your gun. It's your life. It seems like a lot of people making comments are confusing birdshot with larger shot such as BB’s, #1-#4, 00, etc… The larger the shot it more penetration power you’re going to get.

So unless any of you have data relating to birdshot here what I’m going to say:

Birdshot is for Birds (and crazy people who don’t care about self-defense)
Larger shot for People/Deer/etc

Maybe some of the confusion is between #4 birdshot that is 0.13″ sized pellets, and #4 buck which is about twice the size at 0.24″?

Heck load up some sand or salt in your gun. It’s your life.

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]]> By: rozyredtoes http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40177 rozyredtoes Sun, 08 Aug 2010 23:00:56 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40177 Will, another thing is you need not be concerned with is that I might end up in your unit unless we are related. The only unit I am concerned with is my family unit. The only combat I am interested in is the Peal Harbor type, strike the first and only blow and then leave. If there is no where to go then I will fire up the backhoe and leave 911 calling to the timid and fearful. I live in the Ozarks and the nearest neighbor is over 2500 feet away through the woods and my 5 dogs could always use some extra protein. Oh yes I do have things that will shoot farther and one has a bayonet on it. But the neighbors would get quite upset if I tried to bury one of their kin. Will, another thing is you need not be concerned with is that I might end up in your unit unless we are related. The only unit I am concerned with is my family unit. The only combat I am interested in is the Peal Harbor type, strike the first and only blow and then leave. If there is no where to go then I will fire up the backhoe and leave 911 calling to the timid and fearful. I live in the Ozarks and the nearest neighbor is over 2500 feet away through the woods and my 5 dogs could always use some extra protein. Oh yes I do have things that will shoot farther and one has a bayonet on it. But the neighbors would get quite upset if I tried to bury one of their kin.

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]]> By: rozyredtoes http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/06/12/birdshot-for-self-defense-federal-say-yes/comment-page-1/#comment-40174 rozyredtoes Sun, 08 Aug 2010 22:34:59 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6711#comment-40174 To Rob Taylor, the buck and ball .410 so far has worked just fine. It left huge holes and bee bee holes are all around them. I only practice at 35 feet. I do think that the judge is the best close range personal defense weapon a person can have in time of need. Some person was blathering on about his 12 gauge and what it could do. When he was all through I told him their was one thing that it would not do and that was fit in his pocket. To Rob Taylor, the buck and ball .410 so far has worked just fine. It left huge holes and bee bee holes are all around them. I only practice at 35 feet. I do think that the judge is the best close range personal defense weapon a person can have in time of need. Some person was blathering on about his 12 gauge and what it could do. When he was all through I told him their was one thing that it would not do and that was fit in his pocket.

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