Birdshot for self defense? Federal say yes
There has been a discussion on the blog about the controversial new Federal Personal Defense Handgun .410 shotshell ammunition designed exclusively for the Taurus Judge .410 revolver.
.410 Personal Defense opened and pellets dumped. Thanks to Stephen for the photo.
The round contains 60 pellets of #4 bird shot (each pellet is .13″ in diameter). The load of pellets weight 1/2 oz (218.75 grain). Velocity is listed as 1200 fps which makes the total energy delivered at the muzzle to be 700 ft/lbs.
Federal said to Guns Holsters and Gear that:
The #4 pellets (approximately 10) penetrate to a depth of up to 6″.
(the pellet number is wrong, but the penetration depth sounds right for .410)
So with these facts in mind do you think that this round is capable of delivering a blow that warrants its name? I am not sure it does, but I welcome your opinions in the comments. I have a few issues with this round and how Federal have marketed it.
Firstly, the FBI requires penetration of at least 12″ for their ammunition, added to this is the fact that the pellets are individually, only .13″ in caliber and weigh about 3.6 grain. I would not want to be shot by one, and they could certainty kill if they traveled around the body and hit a vital organ, but I seriously doubt an attacker would be stopped in their tracks.
Another problem is shot dispersion. Dick wrote this comment on the blog about he groupings he achieved.
NOT SUITABLE FOR PERSONAL DEFENSE AGAINST MUCH OF ANYTHING LARGE ENOUGH TO WARRENT “SELF DEFENSE” EXCEPT PERHAPS SMALL SNAKES! A large one shot with this round at 21′ will likely kill you before it bleeds to death! With 2 rounds it put 18-20 pellets inside a 12″ circle so the snake better be curled up and there were plenty enough large gaps to miss a head shot.
Another issue I have is the published velocity. When firearm manufacturers publish velocity they usually base it on their test barrels, which are usually longer than what you would buy. For example shotgun velocities would be recorded from 28″ or 30″ barrel. The 1200 fps this round achieves is very similar to other standard shotgun loads, the difference being it is intended for the Judge. Most of the Judge models have a 2.5″ chamber and 3.5″ barrel. Revolvers measure barrel length forward of the chamber, so compared to a normal shotgun this works about to be 6″ of barrel. I believe shotguns are loaded with fast burning powder (reloaders please correct me if I am wrong), but this seems pretty amazing if it can achieve maximum velocity in only 6″ of barrel.
Finally, if Federal believe this is an adequate round for self-defense, why have they not published their own internal studies? Telling me it has 6″ of penetration, presumably in ballistic gelatin, is just not enough information.
So far Federal have not delivered a .410 buckshot model of the Personal Defense Round, but likely will later this year.
I am interested in your opinions. I don’t consider myself very knowledgeable in this area.
UPDATE:
Other blogger have weighed in on the issue. Go read what they have to say (if you have blogged about it and I don’t know, tell me and I will add your blog to the list):
Michael Bane @ The Michael Bane Blog
Caleb @ Gun Nuts
I think I remember (but can’t remember where) reading a report on the shot pattern of The Judge. Not good. Shooting small shot through a rifled barrel just spins the pellets, making a doughnut pattern with nothing in the middle where you’re aiming.
Now, a buckshot shell. . . That would be interesting to test.
These are a few of the thoughts I have about the Judge and 410 ammo:
1. Numerous instances of self defense involving handguns are limited to brandishing the weapon only. And the Judge has a formidable profile.
2. I’ve heard from self defense trainers that handgun engagements last only 1-3 shots.
3. I consider the 410 birdshot as a less-lethal alternative to the 45 yet packs a significant bang.
I’ve thought about the Judge using a combination of the two cartridges. First two would be 410, last 3 45 long. I think the judge makes for a fine home defense revolver. You could also think about penetration through drywall; the bird shot wont travel as much as the 45, so I would that would lower the risk to family in the house.
To depend upon 410 birdshot while acknowledging the pitiful penetration of the round is to accept that you are relying on a “psychological stop” to protect your family. If all you want is for the bad guy to say “Owwie! They’re shooting at me!” then why don’t you buy a pellet gun, or maybe airsoft?
Most sane people don’t want to be shot by *anything* and will stop the moment they encounter any resistance. Then again, most sane people don’t break into occupied houses. Are you really betting your life on the invader suddenly being convinced of the error of his ways and turning around to leave peacefully?
While *you* may deserve what you get for knowingly depending on a terrible tool, your family does not. Please, leave birdshot for shooting at little birdies.
Personally, I always considered the #4 to be the smallest of the Buckshot family, because I considered it the smallest suitable shot for use on medium to large sized mammals. I call it “Dog Shot”. A little too big for birds, a little too small for Deer.
I don’t consider anything that has the potential to be lethal to be inadequate for self defense. I’ve been all over the world in some rather nasty places with little more than my trusty pocket knife and have felt adequately, if not ideally, protected. While my first choice for a primary self defense tool would not be a .32 ACP, I would not discourage someone who owned one from using it for that purpose, and have been known to carry my P32 as a primary when conditions required it. Likewise, #4 out of a 20 gauge would be sufficient, albeit not ideal, in my mind.
The .410 bore is NOT a practical caliber for much of anything, IMHO. I think the .410 is a fun, sports shooting round. Let’s say it’s the .22LR of the hunting world. Relatively cheap compared to other bores, but able to be fired in relatively cheap guns. There’s lots of stuff you can kill with a .22LR, but most people would choose something bigger to hunt with, and almost nobody would pick a .22LR for self defense if they had a choice.
I think the .410 bore out of a handgun is just plain silly. You could carry a 6″ Glock 17L that was the same size as a Taurus Judge and have 17+ rounds, or if you like revolvers, a 4″ S&W 686 in .357 Magnum which will give you either one or TWO EXTRA ROUNDS. A .410 Bore firing slugs out of an 18″ Shotgun provides the same muzzle energy as a .357 Magnum out of a 4″ revolver.
#4 birdshot is absolutely NOT suitable for defense against a human or other large mammal! Box ‘o Truth has a good analysis with a few anecdotes to back this up. They also show what happens when you put shot through a rifled barrel.
#4 birdshot is absolutely NOT suitable for defense against a human or other large mammal! http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm has a good analysis with a few anecdotes to back this up. They also show what happens when you put shot through a rifled barrel: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot43.htm
Here’s a link to a test report on the Taurus Judge by “The Box O’ Truth”:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
Bottom line: For self-defense with a Taurus Judge, use the .45 Colt, not the .410!
I’m with B Woodman- when Federal can create a .410 load that doesn’t fire a bagel-shaped pattern after being fired through a rifled barrel? THEN, we’d have something. Until then, the Judge remains a fun idea getting brutally pimp-slapped in the face by the laws of physics.
There is a good article on the Judge on the “Box of Truth” website. I recommend anyone considering the Judge read it. The article echoes the concerns here that .410s are the Backstreet Boys of the shotgun world – wimpy, weak, not very useful but somehow “fun.”
Federal does sell a .410 “Defense Buckshot” marketed for the Judge. I shot some in my Springfield M6 Scout Rifle and it was fine. I had excellent practical accuracy with the round out to 75 feet.
Sorry – the link to the “Box of Truth” test on the Judge is http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
The Box O’ Truth has a very interesting article relating to this. Not the same calibers, but interesting none the less.
Their comments on shotshells:
“2. They are poor “Stoppers” against bad guys, due to insufficient penetration.
3. Use modern, well-designed JHP rounds for personal defense.”
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot30_3.htm
I don’t understand what the fascination is with the Judge. It’s a gun that performs two different functions, both poorly. It’s a horrible shotgun by shotgun standards. It’s too big and heavy by revolver standards. For $500 bucks you can easily buy a snub .38+p AND a shotgun and get a lot more use out of both.
I’ll tell ya what though, the novelty of it would be worth $500 to me if it could fire 45-70 gov’t…
-Don
^ What Matt Groom said.
My only useful addition to this discussion: our enemies in the sandbox average, what, 7″ front to back, vs. 10″+ for the corn-fed boys over here?
If you are talking about shooting the average T, or maybe a little kid, this would make sense. Otherwise, it seems like a good way to escalate hostilities in a direction opposite to what you intended.
Wow, #4!
That seems unlikely to penetrate clothing.
I’ll stick to the buck sized pellets.
I don’t get the donut shaped pattern either. Wierd.
Fun gun to shoot though.
I really doubt that the advertised velocity of 1200fps is out of a 2.5″ barrel. Published data is usually for the standard shotgun barrel length. You can get up to 1300fps pretty easy and some 12ga loads go to 1585fps but not much past. Somebody needs to shoot one over a chrony.
I had considered getting a Judge but I viewed the shotshell as a snake load. I guess it could be considered a goblin deterrent but I would rather have the 45 or a slug. The .410 cal is only cheap if you reload, which I do. Factory .410 ammo is easily 2-3 times the cost of 12ga or 20ga. It would be interesting to try working up a load that would have enough velocity out of the 2.5″ barrel.
7/16oz lead in a 2 1/2″ .410 is a little heavier than normal so pressures are going up. That pellet count definitely says that it is #4 birdshot which is quite different than #4 buckshot.
Standard load would be 1/2 oz. I was thinking that handloading for personal defense with #4 buckshot (0.24″ diameter) might be interesting. Take it a little less than 1/2oz (7 pellets instead of 10) and load it up to try to get 1100fps at the muzzle. The use of buffering material would probably be needed as I do not think that there is a wad designed for less that 1/2oz.
I love the .410 for dove season here. There is nothing better than watching the expression of people shooting (or should I say, who can’t shoot at all) a 12ga as I limit out and they are still looking for bird number 3 with two boxes of ammo gone. The .410 is an excellent small game hunting round. It just isn’t as easy. I usually don’t bother to tell the other hunters that I shoot that 870 at the skeet range.
I must be having a senior moment as 7/16 is less than 1/2.
Matt…are you confusing #4 buckshot (which is .24 inches) with #4 birdshot (.13 inches)?
Because they are a bit different.
As for the round….it appears to be completely inadequate. It MIGHT work at contact distances. Maybe. Using birdshot at close ranges in even a full sized shotgun is a risky endeavor, and as you’ve mentioned the Judge is quite a bit shorter.
Personally, if all I had was the Judge I’d either be shooting slugs or .45 colts out of it. #4 buckshot out of a .410 might work within 10 or so yards, but the range of self defense situations can’t always be predicted.
When push comes to shove I’ll shoot a person with a pellet gun before going hand to hand, and I’ll reach for a frying pan first. Birdshot is not ideal for self defense but frankly nothing is. Everything is a bit of a trade off and no gun is perfect for every situation.
I like to do some iking and woodsloafing. I like a snub nosed double action revovlever for that, and I have thought about (but passed on) the Judge. With #4 shot you have a decent all purpose round for what you’ll most likely be shooting at (feral dogs, coyotes, snakes) that still can run off the pot farmer you stumble accross. I’m with mskiles314 on a 2 #4s 3.45s loading. Much more utilitarian in the woods than a Glock.
That said I have a .410 and the buckshot rounds are pretty good and everywhere, so I don’t see the point.
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
Dick Cheney shot his friend with bird shot at a distance of 30ft IIRC and it didn’t do much damage.
The Box o Truth guys put the Judge through its paces a while back – The Taurus Judge Vs. The Box O’ Truth
Birdshot isn’t a reliable person killer even out of a 12 gauge. Even at very close range.
Out of a .410 snubbie? Ridiculous.
Damn, you’re right Regolith. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about firearms, but it never occurred to me that shot was not necessarily numbered in a linear fashion and that Buckshot is actually a different class of projectiles, not simply a larger shot designation. Although this does explain were the term “BB” comes from…
I guess that if you go bigger than the Buckshot class, you enter “Roundball” class and Slugs. I was definitely thinking of #4 buck, which is probably the smallest shot I’ve ever used other than the #7 1/2 birdshot they sell at Walmart. Weird.
In that case, bird shot is not useful for self defense. That’s kinda a “duh” sort of thing, me thinks.
I can’t stand the Judge. People think it’s a shotgun in their pocket…perhaps, but the tiniest shotgun possible. Those easy to carry Bond Arms derringer .410s always made sense to me – snakes sneak up on you and they’re hard to hit. I guess you can say the same of evil men, but then again you need to hit them hard. It always seemed to me like peppering someone with small shot from a pistol was both ineffective and asking to be sued. Crazy risk to bystanders. And who said this was less-than-lethal? I don’t think so. It’s just in a pointless limbo between LTL and lethal enough.
Matt, don’t beat your self up. It is an easy mistake to make.
This is a short range handgun self defense load.
Most handgun fights take place at extremely close range.
This will do the job at a few feet.
From the original article: “I am interesting in your opinions. I don’t consider myself very knowledgeable in this area.”
(I’m pretty sure that word was meant to be “interested”.
)
I dont think this is exactly rocket science. The FBI bases their standard on certain factors and if you agree with those factors (mainly, that you don’t always get a clear frontal shot but rather close quarters combat is a hectic and chaotic business, thus you might have to shoot through the attackers arm, or at an oblique angle, etc.) then their insistence of minimum penetration of about 12″, give or take, makes sense. (‘Tis (12″ minimum penetration) more like a guide line than a rule.
) Also, even with a clear frontal shot, to reach vital organs such as the heart and lungs, you have to penetrate bone – those pellets were how big and heavy, again? Seems like a pretty clear case of ammunition failing to reach acceptable minimum standard to be considered effective, to me.
mskiles314:
“1. Numerous instances of self defense involving handguns are limited to brandishing the weapon only. And the Judge has a formidable profile.
2. I’ve heard from self defense trainers that handgun engagements last only 1-3 shots.”
According to your point 1, you would be happy to have a piece of soap carved into a firearm shape and painted black as your self-defense weapon, then?
Just like any other kind of psychological stop may take place, relying on that to happen is to rely on never meeting an opponent with any amount of determination. In other words, only preparing to fight the easiest possible opponents. Hardly a robust survival strategy, I would think.
As for your point 2, either find better trainers or learn to pay better attention to them. Anyone claiming a firefight will last 1-3 rounds, period, is talking out of their ass. That 1-3 rounds may or may not be an average number of rounds fired, but believing that the average is what will happen and training according to that assumption (as in, “the average gun fight is only 1-3 shots fired so I won’t be needing a reload”), is training to only win 50% of possible fights. Kind of the same as relying on a psychological stop, come to think of it… If you’re happy with the thought that if you ever have to defend yourself you have an at least 50% chance of losing, then I guess you’re good to go, but personally, I want my odds to be waaayyyyy the hell better. Also, as with any other statistic, an average alone, without other information, is a useless bit of trivia. Before you can draw any conclusions about the data, you need to know if the rest of the data points are close ot the average, or all over the place – in other words, you need to know what the standard deviation is.
I see this overlooked most of the time,there is always the possibility of a contact wound.If all else fails,put the muzzle on the man and fire.That would be very lethal,IMHO.
The fight cannot be assumed to take place at a distance.There are plenty of cases where the fight was to get the weapon away.
A .410 load from contact range would be a devestating fight ender.I can’t think of too many revolvers that would pack the punch of buckshot or a slug.
I think the gun is a wonderful idea.
On smaller pellets and penetration.
Where I live (Denmark) , 4 mm pellets are the biggest ones permitted for Hunting (buckshots are illegal) ..
thats another thing ,but:
From a full length 12 gauge shotgun, I’ve seen what 4 mm pellets in a good hard load does to a deer. When the distance is below 10-15 meters, and if your shot placement is right, a 60 pound deer can be instantly incapitated with 4 mm pellets. I had one where both front legs were shattered from a too low first shot. second one tore trough lungs and ribs.
I know that deers are not humans. But I dont want to get hit with a 36 gram shot travelling about 400 m/s filled with 4 mm pellets. It’s not optimal, but if it kills deers and foxes at up to 15 yards, it’s not useless against humans.
But then again, thats 12 gauge and not 410. And its full size gun, not pocket size.
Putting faith in birdshot could get you killed, it’s as simple as that. If you need to use a gun in a self-defence situation you need a calibre that will end the fight as effectively and as rapidly as possible. If you have the Judge, load it with .45 Colt. I’ve heard of some people wanting to put birdshot into the first few chambers for self-defence- but some kind of humanitarian notion of wounding a violent criminal in a life or death situation is foolhardy in the extreme.
You can not depend on a calibre with less than optimal terminal ballistics. Sure, it’s possible under specific circumstances that the .410 might do the job but if you are in a life-threatening situation you cannot bet your life- and perhaps that of your family- on a cartridge that may or may not work. Using birdshot may only serve to wound or enrage a violent criminal- and to use the average shots per gunfight figure- do you want to be involved in a shoot-out where you fire one or two shots intended to bring down small birds at a well-built, violent criminal while he’s firing a 9mm at you? Chances are you won’t make it to the .45 Colt cartridges further around the cylinder.
Federal promoting birdshot as a self-defence round are, in my opinion, encouraging reckless behaviour which could get innocent people killed. The Judge is a nifty gun with some unique applications but birdshot is for birds- .45 Colt is for two-legged predators.
All handgun rounds are a compromise.
If it is between a hit with birdshot packing 700 ft.lbs. and miss with a .45 colt I will take the hit.
Obviously you want the next couple of chambers to hold the .45.
I would not discount 700 ft. lbs. of birdshot at close range.
Talk of “not useful for defense” is irrational.
I live in a country where all you could ever get “legitimately” is bird-shot. But here, even the police are ignorant of the calibres: as long as it is a “gun” it is “considered” lethal: this is a police force that sometimes chases robbers with a Tear-gas gun (It has a BIG muzzle, so it must be a DEADLY weapon!)
I can only get bird-shot, and while okay for training, I need something for SD. So: what if I un-crimp some shells, pour out the bird-shot, and replace with same weight in ball-bearings, the re-crimp? I know this must have been discussed in several of the forums out there, but I just can’t seem to find any clear answer. Would it work, with any reasonable accuracy, or do I just continue to practice how to put as much bird-shot on target as possible? What do you think?
Fred wrote:
“All handgun rounds are a compromise.”
Ah. So your logic is that since even the most potent of handgun rounds is a compromise, compromising some more on top of that is just dandy? “Why bother with a compromise round like a 9mm or .45, why not just pack .22 short” – something like that?
“If it is between a hit with birdshot packing 700 ft.lbs. and miss with a .45 colt I will take the hit.
Obviously you want the next couple of chambers to hold the .45.”
Hold on. If the birdshot is effective, why chamber .45 rounds at all? If the birdshot is ineffective, why bother with it at all?
Do remember that at contact ranges, the birdshot travels in one clump, and once it spreads out it has also lost so much kinetic energy as to be fairly harmless to a human target.
“Talk of “not useful for defense” is irrational.”
Oh? Seems to me that all the reasoned discussion is coming from the sceptical side, and those claiming shooting people with birdshot is the way to go seem to resort to the “well I wouldn’t want to get shot with it”-level of arguments. (I would not personally like to get a paper cut, but that doesn’t mean I’d advocate the use of a piece of paper as a self-defense instrument. There is a difference between “unpleasant” and “stops a goal-oriented attacker fast”.)
@Tony
Sure fine you win.
I don’t advocate birdshot as the optimal defense load.
The discussion was supposed to be about the legitimacy of birdshot in the judge as a self defense load. My point is that it does have its place.
I am sure after you get hit in the face with 700 ft.lbs. of birdshot you will finish off the badguy with your 44 magnum or whatever.
I will stick to my 1911/230 grain hardball.
I surrender.
For the education of all…
http://www.commonwealthcriminaljusticeacademy.com/articles/HandgunStoppingPower.pdf
@ Y-Man:
Prohibitions against shotgun shot size, such as is apparently practiced in Nigeria and in Denmark, are incredibly silly. Whatever you take out of the shell can easily be replaced since unlike a pistol or rifle, it is not caliber dependent. It is weight dependent, however. The safest and probably easiest thing to do in your case would be to find larger shot of sufficient roundness, such as steel ball bearings used in certain industrial applications, and match the weight of the lead shot to the replacement pellets, or use slightly less. If the replacement projectiles weigh more, you’ll increase the pressure when you fire it, and that could potentially be dangerous.
If you have access to a good heat source, you could probably use the shot that you remove to cast larger sized buckshot out of lead. I don’t know if these things can be bought in Nigeria, but there are several molds made for fishing weights that would make very effective projectiles for shotguns. Fishing weights (the small ones that are made of soft lead that you clamp onto the fishing line) should work pretty well. Keep in mind that roundness of the projectile will equate to better accuracy, and depending on the range you intend to use it at, that may or may not be important. A buckshot mold is quite possibly the easiest mold to make, and any machinist should be able to make one pretty easily if you just show them pictures of a bullet mold.
The hardest part will be re-crimping your shot shells, which without specialized shotshell reloading dies can be a nightmare (I’ve actually tried this!). If you have access to this equipment, or have found a method that works, then you’re in business. Good luck!
mmmm…
the federal birdshot seem a tentative for a dissuasive ammunition with a limitated lesive power.
the first shot with the birdshot and the successives with 45 Long Colt..
when the federal will produce a cartridge like this:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg213-e.htm
(not silenced, obviously)
i suppose that it is the right ammunition for the jugde.
What do you know, Old Painless just posted a report on Buckshot at AR15.com.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=886723
jdun1911, good timing. Thanks for the link
I’m no fan of birdshot for self defense, as per the Box O’ Truth. Sure, they might work, but I want to improve my odds as much as possible. However, I want to point out that Federal is also making a load with 4 pellets of #000 buckshot. That would seem to be more appropriate.
I do think the Judge could make a dandy woods gun, much like the Bond Arms Snake Slayer derringers.
@Matt Groom,
I did the steel ball bearing swap: just got back from the “range”: worked perfectly!. I was firing at a light steel plate target at about 30 feet, with a Turkish semi-auto 12-gauge. Steel plate was PERFORATED! (Videos available, Steve…might mail you some…)
I modified and fired 4 rounds (Varying sizes of ball bearings, filled up a bit with bird-shot to get the weight up and stop the steel balls rattling loosely): but I noticed that the time I put the modified round directly in the magazine (rather than behind a non-modified round) the little raised guide “bump” in the magazine pressed into the wadding/ seal I put in to hold the balls in, and some grains of powder escaped. Still fired okay though. Left my bore DIRTY!
What am I saying? If there’s nothing but BB bird-shot like we have here in Nigeria: replace with ball bearings in a safe and proper manner for SD. Get good grade steel ball bearings, weigh to ensure the replacements are same or less than the weight of the removed lead bird-shot, and ensure you seal properly (I used a light covering of adhesive on a cut-out paper wad.) Also; when loading the weapon: put an un-modified round into the magazine first; BEFORE the modified: this provides a flat surface for the face of the modified rounds to rest upon.
I must confess though: the first round was fired from a “remote firing rig” (I basically found a tree with the right kind of horizontal branch; zip-tied the shotgun to said branch, and used a strong nylon twine to fire it! Recoil broke the zip-ties! Shotgun got quite dirty, so I had to do a quick field cleaning…)
I will be getting some AAA shot soon, that could serve as my primary HD/SD ammo (Nothing like Buckshot in Nigeria!), while I keep my BB for the “bitty birds”!
Y-man, good job!
Ok, I’e got to weigh in on this again
I have fired 4 different loads from my 4″ barreled (includng the chamber portion) American Derringer Model 4 .45 Colt/.410 (2-1/2″ OR 3″). The results at 21′ were as follows:
#4 .410 BIRDSHOT Federal 2-1/2″ (“Personal Defense”) — about 60 pellets ABSOLUTLY NOT ADAQUATE FOR PERSONAL DEFENSE except for possibly aganst the occasional dive-bombing, nest protecting blackbird!
3×000 .410 BUCKSHOT Winchester 2-1/2″ — a good 12″ pattern of 3 .36″ 68gr centered but a little high of the aim point. I think I’ jerking this a little and even dry-firing (with snap-caps) shows the hammer fall brings the muzzle up about 6″ this distance so that may account for the slightly high pattern.
5×000 .410 BUCKSHOT Winchester 3″ — a GREAT 12″ pattern of 5 .36″ 68gr centered but a little high … see above. THE BEST DAMNED CLOSE-UP AND PERSONAL PERSONAL DEFENSE HANDGUN ROUND I CAN IMAGINE! It will certianly clear the hallway, shoot throuth the car door if necessary (from the inside) to discourage a car jacking, and if there are 2 bad guys, you have another round waiting for him just in case he didn’t notice what happened to his buddy! I do not by any means recommend this round/weapon combo for someone who is a bit timid about recoil. After 6 rounds, it HURTS! It is not a firefight weapon nor was it intended to be. If you think you’r going to be in one, get the proper license and real AK-47! It’s what they are made for. It’s also
.45 Colt Winchester 225gr JHP — 12″ groups a little high and left. Great if you can hit even a stationary target at 20′ with ANY HANDGUN in the dark, while under stress or perhaps while being fired at (being fired at is also classified as being under stress)!
I have a box of 4×000 410 Federal Personal Defense rounds coming late this week and next Monday (after my hand heals) I’ll try out a few. I suspect this is the round I will settle on.
Dick Getty
Dick, thanks for the comment. Very interesting. Please let us know how the Federal 4×000 works out for you.
Be careful using steel shot. Most lead shot loads have powder that is too fast for steel loads. Steel shot does not pass through either the forcing cone or the choke of a shotgun as easily as lead. You can get dangerous pressure spikes!
@TMCC
You are right! I did some more shooting with my steel ball bearings and then thoroughly/ meticulously inspected the forcing cone, and the barrel. Obviously: the steel balls have caused a few glancing dents in the forcing cone, and some rough streaks down the bore of my shotgun. Of course: I have discontinued my “modifying” antics. (I got rid of all the ammo stock I had modified.)
I do not have access to equipment/ facilities to re-work/ modify regular lead loads: I’ll stick to the regular AAA stuff for now: at least my shotgun is not irreparably damaged by my “irresponsible” ammo modification.
Thanks!
I was able to buy 3 boxes of FEDERAL PERSONAL DEFENSE 2-1/2″ .410 4×000 BUCKSHOT rounds late last week and got to the range yesterday.
NOTE:
The pellets are copper plated thus reducing the deformation as they travel through the barrel.
I only had time to fire a couple of rounds but here are the results:
At 21′ (7 yards) 1 barrel fired a pattern 3″ group and the other a 2″ wide by 7″ high group with 3 of the pellets grouping at 2″ x 3″ and closer to the aim point than the 4th.
The wadding or “cup” also tears a hole in a paper target that’s not well backed-up).
The recoil was less than the .45 Colt rounds or the Winchester 2-1/2″ 3×000 Buckshot fired previously and was quite acceptable.
So, refering to my previous post, above:
1. If you are sure that you can fire accurately under pressure, I would have to recommend the Federal 4×000 rounds. Placing 3-4 .36″, 68gr pellets traveling at “1200fps” according to Federal over a 2″ x 3″ area at 21′ should make a huge hole nearly clean through a bad-guy. An awful mess that would bleed out as fast as anything I can imagine. At 10′ it should cause even more concentrated damage.
This round should be great out to 30′ or so (if fired accurately) which is about as far as you are likely to ever have to use a pistol in a self-defense situaton.
2. If your are NOT so sure that you can get off an accurate shot under pressure (a first round hit on a man-sized target) AND you can handle the recoil from the Winchester 3″ 5×000 Buck, then I would use it rather than the Federal as the spread is greater and has one more pellet (25% greater weight throw) but 25′-30′ is probably the maximum effective comfort range .
THE SIX MAIN RULES OF SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING ARE:
PRACTICE!, PRACTICE! PRACTICE!
FRONT-SIGHT!, FRONT-SIGHT!, FRONT-SIGHT!
Would that Federal try a 3″ 6-7×000 Buckshot load for the Judge and American Derringer M-4.
These are just my observations and opinions.
Comments?
people keep say9ing that the judges rifling makes i shoot donuts 410 rounds have shot cups so the 410 round dont touch the rifling wtf you all are stupid
-Just getting into Krav Maga myself. Can you recommend and dvd’s or videos for me to watch?
While birdshot is not applicable for self defense you could use a .410 Winchester Super-X “000″ Buckshot (5 Pellet) round.
I don’t think anyone wants to get hit with a 70 grain ball.
what about a “buck & ball” handload in 3 inch in the judge 3 mag??
seems to me a woman cowering in the corner as a man breaks in the window and enters the house couldn’t hit anything most nights, giving the “buck” a copper plated BB load, with a “ball” of 000 .36 she just might hit something with 5 rounds across the room??
So, today I got back to the range and fired 3/4 box (15 2-1/2″ Federal 4×000 buck .410 rounds. A bunch of them at 40′. This from a 4″ barreled American Derringer Model 4. That 4″ includes the chamber so the actual “barrel” is only about 1-1/2″. The pellets are copper plated as apposed to the Winchester 3×000 2-1/2″ and 5×000 3″ .410 rounds.
The powder load in the Federal rounds has obviously been lightened up (perhaps Federal is also usng a faster burnng powder) to compensate for the short barreled weapons the round is designed for (the Tarus Judge and other short barreled pistols).
Also, the grouping of the buckshot from the Federal rounds IS MUCH MORE COMPACT than the Winchester rounds. At 40′, 6-9″ groups can be expected! (only 1 group out of the 4 shots I fired was larger).
The recoil from the Federal rounds IN THIS WEAPON (weighs just under 1 pound) is very acceptable.
I found the 3″ 5×000 Winchester rounds to have an unacceptably harsh recoil (FOR ME) in this weapon.
But, remember, the Judge weighs 3 times as much as my little derringer.
So, I hereby revise my effective range estimates for the Federal 2-1/2″ 4×000 copper plated .410 rounds fired from a Model 4 American Derringer from 30′ out to 50′
Close enough for government work?
To Bugeater: If your lady is “cowering in the corner” then the Judge or a large caliber derrnger or any other large caliber weapon WILL NOT BE SUITABLE FOR HER! DON’T OVER-PURCHASE IN CALIBER. She won’t practice with it!
Pistol markmanship (or as my oldest daughter would say “markswomenshp”) does not come automatically. IT TAKES PRACTICE! IT TAKES REPITITON! TO TRAIN THE SHOOTERS HANDS/EYES AND MUSSELS TO WORK TOGETHER FOR ACCURATE BULLET PLACEMENT UNDER STRESS. PRAY AND SPRAY IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE SELF-DEFENSE TECHNIQUE!
See also my 2 other posts, above
Questions?? Comments??
dck, very interesting. Thanks for posting your results.
I just purchased a 3 inch chamber judge with 3 inch barrel.
I saw federal handgun 2.5 inch # 4 in the store, but I wanted the extra power of 3 inch shells.
I purchased 3 inch # 4 H&H.
I want an effective gun for self defense and snakes for my wife to use.
I have not fired it yet, but put 3 410 shells and 2 45 long colts in the gun.
The long colts are expensive, so I will likely only shoot 410 shells out of the gun.
Federal, should provide detailed balistic for 410 shot that all in the industry can challenge.
Federal is a good company and should have good products, so let the industry put them to the test.
I spent $525.00 on the 3 inch chamber Judge, I hope I didn’t waste my money.
What 410 round, preferably in 3 inch shells should I use so my wife can have a personal defense gun in the house and I can defend against snake in our yard?
Tom:
It depends on how the amount of recoil you and/or your wife can COMFORTABLY handle.
I personally would not want to rely on #4 BIRDSHOT for self-defense if a better alternative is available.
Normal .410 loads are designed to be used in long-barreled shotguns.
000 BUCKSHOT is .36″ in diameter. The same as a .357/38/9mm round).
The 2/1/2″ Federal 4×000 BUCKSHOT makes an excellent round especially designed for short-barreled handguns as the powder charge and recoil is reduced. The buckshot is also copper plated. In my .45 Colt/.410 derringer with a 4″ barrel (including the chamber) it fires a pattern between 2″ and 3″ at 20′ The pattern at 40′ is about 12″. Good enough for snakes of all types!
(Visualize 4 or 5 of these impacting your chest all at once!)
Winchester makes a 3″ 5×000 buckshot .410 round (the buckshot is NOT PLATED) which has a more hefty recoil. The pattern with my derringer is about 9″ at 20′ using this round. It comes in boxes of 5.
Don’t try to push your wife into the 3″ .410 loads if she is even a bit shy about recoil. She won’t practice enough to become effective with the weapon.
The Winchester .45 Colt JHP is also a handful from a recoil standpoint.
The Federal 4×000 has more throw-weight (4×68 grains = 272 grains) and at “1200 fps” (according to Federal) as apposed to the 225 grain .45 Colt JHP at around 900 fps. I have also found that this .45 Colt round tends to tumble out of my short barreled derringer thus reducing it’s accuracy at longer than ” ‘cross the card table” ranges. This, I think, is because there’s only about 1″ of rifling. With the Judge, or other longer barreled handgun, it would probably stabilize properly.
Buy a box of each and try them. See which works best for you.
I have found that 8-10 rounds per session is about all I can handle using the .45 Colt, 2-1/2″ OR 3″ Winchester rounds. Using the 2-1/2″ Federal (either the #4 birdshot or 4×000 BUCKSHOT) I can manage up to about 15 rounds before my hand becomes sore and I get recoil shy.
ALSO keep in mind that your Judge weighs a lot more than my 15oz derringer. The perceived recoil will be somewhat less.
The secret here, I think, is that if you’re going to be in a firefight, get a full auto AK! So for a pistol, 2 to 5 rounds should be plenty. WHICH MEANS: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!
The Federal 4×000 is difficult to get, but at http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=533166, you can order or backorder a box of 20.
Just my thoughts
I am a an OLD 410 fan and have used them for most everything since November 1950. A 410 slug will take down a deer, feral pig and a crook.
I’ve modified every type of shot and created some of my own for ducks.
I’ve purchased the Judge with a 6 and 1/2 inch barrel for home defense. First my house is fair size but most pistol are hard to aim when nerveous. Since my average room is 16 foot square, it is certain that if I fire the Judge at an intruder with #7 bird shot he will be immediately disoriented by multiple shot stinging his hide, the second shot will be #4s if he has not run out of the house and if he is still there he will have to deal with two standard 410 slugs. A fifth round will not be necessary.
More than likely, an intruder will be about 10 feet away if I am forced to shoot the #7s will hurt severly, the #4 even worse. The slugs hopefully wil not exit but distort as they do in a pig or deer. It will not be pretty.
At a military range I’ve put (7) seven 45 rounds in a 3 and 1/2 inch grouping consistantly on target for most of my military career. However, for home defense against an intruder the Judge is what I will use. I’ll have to Mop Up the mess, and the cops will follow a bloody trail to the Emergency room.
I will feel secure regardless. Do not ever under estimate the 410, it is deadly.
At 10 feet #7s get your attention and is a mind changing if on the reciving end.
Dick and DCK I enjoyed both yoour comments and test.
Hey Y-Man i am new to the reloading arena, and have some questions about melting down birdshot into buckshot or slugs. Can you email me at Mabbus4 [ at ] hotmail [dot[ com. Thanks
I had a comment on the Judge. I recently bought one and I have to say I was a bit unsure whether it was going to do what I wanted it to do. What I wanted was a gun that my wife felt comfortable with. She doesn’t like guns very much and has always been scared of them. I bought her a S&W Airweight and she has never shot it. This concerned me because if she ever needed it, I was afraid she would empty the thing and miss whatever she was shooting at. After buying the Judge, I wanted to run it through some test of my own to see how it performed. It is the Pub. Defender model and I expected it to have much more recoil and really be kind of nasty to shoot. However, it was just the opposite. It does not kick bad at all. We started out shooting number 6 shells and we taped a target to a 55 gallon drum. We busted off one round from about 12 yards away and to my suprise, the target was filled. I would also like to say that while none of the pellets appeared to go through the 55 gal. drum, they did make a mess of it. There were pellet dents in the drum and deeper than I thought they would be. I have wondered since then if we had been closer, if they might have gone through it. I didn’t want to try it because of one coming back our way. She liked it and felt good about it. After we were done, I shot some buckshot and some # 4 shells in it and I will tell you for sure that I would not want to be on the other end. I shot have shot anything from filled milk jugs, pumpkins, and even shot a Coyote that jumped out on me and a friend at hunt camp. I had #6 in it and Coyote died. I didn’t tell my wife, but now it is loaded with a #4 then some buckshot and 1 45LC. From what I have seen about the gun, I have no doubt removing her snub nose 38 from the closet and replacing it with the JUDGE. Thanks for your time
the gun sucks, the ammo velocity as published is misleading, the idea of SD with ‘less lethal’ ammo is easily accomplished IN AIRSOFT OR PAINTBALL GAMES but in the real world it’s dumber’n playing in traffic.
After one HELL of a lot of analysis I’ve determined that home-centered self defense is easiest accomplished with your main carry handgun FOR ANYONE WITH LITTLE OR NO FORMAL TRAINING. Whatever you shoot most regularly is likely the gun with which you have the best chance of surviving armed conflict.
Fewer rounds than a 1911, no track record, arguable marginal ammo, and who in the WORLD wants to TRAIN at a buck a round with a borderline, unproven, SILLY weapon…
I can personally attest to the effectiveness of the Judge, Public Defender 2″ barrel, 2.5″ cylinder. Monday I had a home invasion. Being in a wheelchair I was pushed and dumped out of wheelchair and I fired 3 shots as I fell. The first 2 were Federal Personal Defense 7/16 oz, 4 shot shells and the 3rd a solid lead .45 Colt, had 2 more following. Ironically, I was going to the range the next day, that’s why I had it out. I bought the gun 3 months ago and had never fired it. (Have other guns). I like others wasn’t sure how well this gun would work. Normally I would have had 3 (000) Buck Winchester shot shells with 3 .45 Colt JHP.
Results were instant death to the first man and the other man ran. Later found out he died of extensive heart damage. Evidently missed with the 3rd .45 as I was laying on floor by then. Distance 3-4 feet. Worked at this distance but at greater would definitely prefer the rounds I planned on using.
Lucky I was alert.
First of I’m glad you’re OK and the crooks didn’t hurt you. This is an interesting story and affirmation that all rounds are dangerous in the right circumstances.
“I can personally attest to the effectiveness of the Judge, Public Defender 2″ barrel, 2.5″ cylinder. Monday I had a home invasion. Being in a wheelchair I was pushed and dumped out of wheelchair and I fired 3 shots as I fell.” — Gary
Do you have any news stories you can reference this occurrence to? People on the Internet tend to embellish and lie about things so if this really happened I would like it if you could provide any sort of supporting information about the event.
I own the Taurus Judge and I feel it is a great weapon but know the gun’s limitations I have shot it numerous times and for self-defence I would only use either .410 buckshot , slugs or the .45 Colt the #6 and smaller shot is just bird shot and useless for self-defence as the penetration is far less than my air-gun , what I would love to see for the Taurus Judge would be an interchangeable cylinder for the .45 ACP , as .45 Colt ammo is hard to locate and when it is located the price is sky high ! Also be very aware that in certain parts of the U.S.(the State of California for one) the Taurus Judge as well as the shotgun derringers (American Arms and Bond Derringer) are illegal ! As a trail weapon here in Northern Arizona I carry my Taurus Judge with one round of .410 buckshot followed by one round of .45 Colt a great defence against man or beast !
Thomas have you tried Sports Authority? I buy .45 LC there still for less than a dollar a bullet for C.A.S. loads (230gr or so Lead flat points) which are plenty of medicine for a bad guy. I got a couple of boxes of 50rd for $37 a piece. Not the cheapest but in my neck of the woods a better deal than any ACP I’ve seen.
I wait until the Cross Roads gun show comes to Phoenix before I attempt to buy any .45 Colt ammo as there is only one gun store in the general area where I live and the ammo is $40 a box and up , at the gun show I have seen factory reloads for $20-$25 a box of fifty rounds ! There was an individual who used to sell reloaded ammo on Saturdays at the Prescott valley swap and had .45 Colt reloads for $15 , one of the few people I would ever buy reloads from as he had been doing reloads for many years , I am very careful about buying reloaded ammo as you never know if the person was qualified , nothing like turning your .45/.410 Taurus Judge into a magnum cannon that could blowup on you ! I have shot besides the Taurus Judge , the Bond Derringer , the American Arms derringer as well as the Master Piece Arms “Legend” derringer and I can truely say the Judge is superior to all of the derringers ! The most painful gun I ever shot was the American Arms derringer in .44 magnum , take a hammer and hit the web of your hand very hard and you will get an idea what the recoil was like shoting that monster ! I once seen an American Arms derringer for sale at a gun show in .45/70 ‘ with a “life time” supply of ammo 20 rounds ! The owner told me that was all I’d ever want to shoot out of that gun as the recoil was ungodly painful , he said he shot the derringer only once and the weapon flew out of his hand and hit his wife in the head ! Needless to say I passed up that “good deal” ! I had a big laugh once looking at the American Arms web site , they have a derringer for sale called the “Alaskan Survival” a derringer with one barrel chambered for the .45/70 and another barrel chambered for the .410 shotgun cartridge , well I don’t know about any of you I would not want to depend on a two shot derringer up in Alaska against a charging grizzle or polar bear ! The beast would be right on top of you with his teeth in your body before you could get off a fatal shot , if you didn’t break your wrist shooting the .45/70 ! The Master Piece Arms is another very painful weapon to shoot especially with the 3 inch .410 , the grips are way too small ! The best derringer in my opionion if you like derringers is the Bond Arms derringer , large grips and inter-changeable barrels you can shoot .22 LR. thru .45 Colt with many calibers in between , .38 special , 9MM , .45ACP etc ! You can practice shooting your bond derringer with cheap .22’s the best feature about this weapon
A further comment , all of you who own or have an interest in the Taurus Judge check out the newest magazine that is on the magazine rack at your supermarket called Taurus 2010 , the magazine is devoted entirely to the newest Taurus handguns with a full article on the Taurus Judge , after reading the article if you do not own a Judge you will probably want to buy one !
I can tell you from personal experience if you use a Taurus Judge the .45 Colt is the best round that a person can use for self-defence , the #4 .410 is good only at very close range and a marginal round at best for bob cats , rabid coyotes ! And the #6 thru #8 are worthless for self-defence against a human or an animal attack , as the range in a short barrelled revolver or a derringer is very limited with hardly any penetration to speak of , I once shot one of my .45/.410 derringers with the 2 and a half inch #6 .410 shot shell at a metal jar cap( about 3 inches in dia.)at around 10 paces and only 3 shots hit and went thru the cap ! Alot of noise , recoil but very little to show ! Carrying a Judge into a dangerous remote area (Alaska) with #6 or smaller shot is about as foolish as hunting a lion with a sling shot ! A very false sense of security ! Same with stopping a would be mugger or car-jacker , the small shot #6 and above would not even go thru heavy winter clothing ! So leave the small bird shot for the birds and use .45 Colt or buckshot ! Truely the best Taurus Judge to buy is the stainless steel model with a 6-inch barrel and the cylinder that takes the 3-inch .410 shell ! And Taurus refers to the 3 inch .410 as the 3 inch magnum , there is no 3 inch .410 magnum only 2 and half inch or 3 inch .410 !
I was at the Mesa Arizona gun show this past weekend and the Taurus Judge seems to be one of the most popular and desired weapons to own used Judges that were brought to the show by private sellers and reasonably priced were grabbed up in a hurry ! Also there was no .410 shotgun ammo or .45 Colt ammo for sale , usually at these shows there are semi-reasonably priced .45 Colt reloads for sale but not at the Mesa show ! I also noted alot of the older so-called cheap junk guns are also becoming rather expensive now ! The hot sale items besides the Taurus Judge were the new Rugers , the LCP and the LCR !
I see that Winchester is also offering a new self-defence .410 shotgun cartridge for the Taurus judge , looks like from the report that I seen in the Taurus 2010 magazine it looks better for self-defence than the Federal #4 shot as the Winchester has 12 BB sized shot and three cicular projectiles all in one cartridge ! Maybe good at relatively short range under 15 feet , but with a short barrelled revolver as with a short barrelled shotgun derringer penetration will be very poor !
Thomas -
Winchester is apparently trying to combine birdshot with buckshot. I have never tried this round but I think you’d be right in assuming the birdshot would have little penetration except at point blank or contact ranges.
I much prefer the FEDERAL 2-1/2″ 4×000 Buckshot round in my American Derringer model 4. Puts 4 9mm rounds in a 4″ circle EVERY TIME at 20′. Any closer and it would put a 3″ hole in whatever it hits! Good enough for government work!
The Federal 4 BIRDSHOT sucks as a persnal defense round in my opinion.
Dick : Just as the name implys #4 birdshot , it is definately for the birds ! I have shot .410 shot from both my Taurus Judge as well as my American Arms derringer and peneration was terrible , my air-gun has greater penetration ! Shooting the .410 shot all I got was alot of noise , recoil and nothing to show except for a few holes hardly any penetration , this was at 10-15 paces ! This could not penetrate heavy clothing if one were attack by an armed criminal in one of our Eastern cities in the winter or the skin of a dangerous animal as a bear ! The Judge and the .410 derringers are great if used with the proper ammo ! .410 buckshot or .45 Colt ! To be honest with everyone here , given the choice I would take an S&W model 442 airlite with plus p .38 ammo as my personal defence weapon to carry on the city streets or home defence over the Taurus Judge which is really more of a trail weapon !
For all of you who enjoy shooting the Taurus Judge and the shotgun derringers , check out the .410/.45 Colt weapon called the “Comache” a single shot pistol with a 10 inch barrel made in Argentina , I have seen them used at the gun shows for under $200 even $140 a really nice little survival gun that shoots both the 2 and a half inch .410 and also the 3 inch and .45 Colt ! An interesting write up on this weapon in the lattest copy of the “Backwoodsman” magazine ! The Comache shoots more as a regular .410 shotgun than as a short barrelled derringer or the short barrelled Judge , much better shot penetration and farther range !
Thomas
I agree totally about the birdshot.
The reason I like the American Derringer M-4 is that I can carry it in a belly pack with extra rounds (although reloading takes a lot of time and fooling around with this weapon) – It’s stainless steel since since I will be bringing it to the Republic of Panama (mosture and salt) and It’s hard for me to conceal a larger weapon since I’m slight of build.
Everybody wears a fanny pack of some sort down here so it’s easy to go un-noticed. The Argentine .410 with the 10″ barrel sounds like a great quail gun though. I wonder is the barrel rifled? At any rate the Muzzle velocity should be much greater from the 10″ barrel than from my derringer’s 4″ barrel. I figure somewhere around 800fps for either the .45 Colt or the 4×000 buckshot rounds from my derringer but I haven´t been able to chronograph it yet.
I will when I get back to the states in June.
Thanks for you great comments.
Dick , yes the Comanche does have a rifled barrel unfortunately , but that is the only way it is legal to sell , the performance of these shotgun derringers , the Comanche and the Judges would be so much better if their bores were smooth rather than rifled but that is the law . Good luck in Panama and hope you do not have to use your American Arms derringer in a dangerous self-defence situation . The .45 Colt and the .410 buckshot are excellent choices but take into account that derringers are an over and under weapon and they are not the most accurate weapon in the world and dangerous animals like lions move very fast ! If I were in Panama and I could carry a handgun for protection I would definately carry the Taurus Judge in stainless steel loaded with .45 Colt or .410 buckshot or an S&W model 686 stainless steel (7) shot .357 magnum !
If any of you are into the .45/.410 derringers I highly recommend that you purchase one of the Bond Arms derringers they are equally well made as the American Arms derringers but have one big advantage , you can purchase different caliber barrels for your Bond derringer , for around $120 each you can purchase additional barrels in .22LR , 9MM , .45ACP .357 magnum etc ! A great way to get practice shooting your weapon with a .22 LR barrel then when needed just put on the .45/.410 barrel ! You can enjoy shooting your derringer all day without going into debt buying expensive .45 Colt ammo ! American Arms derringers are great , but avoid their ultra powerful derringers , like the .45/70 , .44 magnum and the 30-30 derringers ! I once owned their .44 magnum derringer and shooting it was the most ungodly handgun I ever fired ! Take a hammer and hit the web of your hand as hard as you can and that will give you an idea what shooting that monster was like ! I sold that gun after firing only 4 rounds ! And shooting the .45/70 is twice as bad as that ! Large built men have gotten broken wrists shooting that gun , one I knew had the gun (in .45/70) fly out of his hand and hit his wife in the head ! So for your own well being stay away from the very powerful derringers !
Thomas
I would not recomend someone purchasing a large caliber Bond derringer because of the interchangeable barrels.
For this reason – Large caliber small handguns (Derringers) require practice (painfull as it may be at the beginning) not only for accuracy, but for recoil management, both physical and MENTAL!
Practicing with .22, .25, or .32 caliber barrels will surely improve accuracy USING THE SMALLER CALIBER, but I think will provide little, if any, improvement in accuracy when you switch to the larger caliber barrels for concealed carry and critical self defense use under stress use.
Your thoughts?
Dick : I once purchased a used Bond derringer in the .45/.410 caliber and also included in the purchase were the barrel for the .45ACP as well as the barrel for the .22 LR , I was able to have fun with the same derringer shooting at tin cans , plicking etc and still have the more powerful .45/.410 barrel when I needed it . It was like having several guns in one ! There is no way a person could ever get the same feel , recoil or accuracy shooting the .22 LR out of the same weapon as you would with the .45/.410 ! Even shooting the 3 inch .410 has more noticable recoil than the 2 and a half inch .410 especially in the Bond or American Arms derringers ! Accuracy is really not that great in any derringer as these are over and under weapons the point of the bullet impact will be different with the second shot , this is where the Taurus Judge is superior to the derringer ! I had a good laugh once looking at the American Arms web site and seeing one of their derringers listed as the “Alaskan survival” derringer ! The weapon had one barrel chambered for the .410 shotgun cartridge and the other barrel chambered for the .45/70 , the barrells were 6 inches in lenght , I could only picture someone trying to aim and shoot at either a charging Alaskan polar bear or a grizzly bear with a two shot derringer , the bear would have to be on top of them before there could be an accurate fatal shot ! That is unless the person’s wrist wasn’t broken first firing the .45/70 !