Birdshot for self defense? Federal say yes
There has been a discussion on the blog about the controversial new Federal Personal Defense Handgun .410 shotshell ammunition designed exclusively for the Taurus Judge .410 revolver.
.410 Personal Defense opened and pellets dumped. Thanks to Stephen for the photo.
The round contains 60 pellets of #4 bird shot (each pellet is .13″ in diameter). The load of pellets weight 1/2 oz (218.75 grain). Velocity is listed as 1200 fps which makes the total energy delivered at the muzzle to be 700 ft/lbs.
Federal said to Guns Holsters and Gear that:
The #4 pellets (approximately 10) penetrate to a depth of up to 6″.
(the pellet number is wrong, but the penetration depth sounds right for .410)
So with these facts in mind do you think that this round is capable of delivering a blow that warrants its name? I am not sure it does, but I welcome your opinions in the comments. I have a few issues with this round and how Federal have marketed it.
Firstly, the FBI requires penetration of at least 12″ for their ammunition, added to this is the fact that the pellets are individually, only .13″ in caliber and weigh about 3.6 grain. I would not want to be shot by one, and they could certainty kill if they traveled around the body and hit a vital organ, but I seriously doubt an attacker would be stopped in their tracks.
Another problem is shot dispersion. Dick wrote this comment on the blog about he groupings he achieved.
NOT SUITABLE FOR PERSONAL DEFENSE AGAINST MUCH OF ANYTHING LARGE ENOUGH TO WARRENT “SELF DEFENSE” EXCEPT PERHAPS SMALL SNAKES! A large one shot with this round at 21′ will likely kill you before it bleeds to death! With 2 rounds it put 18-20 pellets inside a 12″ circle so the snake better be curled up and there were plenty enough large gaps to miss a head shot.
Another issue I have is the published velocity. When firearm manufacturers publish velocity they usually base it on their test barrels, which are usually longer than what you would buy. For example shotgun velocities would be recorded from 28″ or 30″ barrel. The 1200 fps this round achieves is very similar to other standard shotgun loads, the difference being it is intended for the Judge. Most of the Judge models have a 2.5″ chamber and 3.5″ barrel. Revolvers measure barrel length forward of the chamber, so compared to a normal shotgun this works about to be 6″ of barrel. I believe shotguns are loaded with fast burning powder (reloaders please correct me if I am wrong), but this seems pretty amazing if it can achieve maximum velocity in only 6″ of barrel.
Finally, if Federal believe this is an adequate round for self-defense, why have they not published their own internal studies? Telling me it has 6″ of penetration, presumably in ballistic gelatin, is just not enough information.
So far Federal have not delivered a .410 buckshot model of the Personal Defense Round, but likely will later this year.
I am interested in your opinions. I don’t consider myself very knowledgeable in this area.
UPDATE:
Other blogger have weighed in on the issue. Go read what they have to say (if you have blogged about it and I don’t know, tell me and I will add your blog to the list):
Michael Bane @ The Michael Bane Blog
Caleb @ Gun Nuts
I think I remember (but can’t remember where) reading a report on the shot pattern of The Judge. Not good. Shooting small shot through a rifled barrel just spins the pellets, making a doughnut pattern with nothing in the middle where you’re aiming.
Now, a buckshot shell. . . That would be interesting to test.
These are a few of the thoughts I have about the Judge and 410 ammo:
1. Numerous instances of self defense involving handguns are limited to brandishing the weapon only. And the Judge has a formidable profile.
2. I’ve heard from self defense trainers that handgun engagements last only 1-3 shots.
3. I consider the 410 birdshot as a less-lethal alternative to the 45 yet packs a significant bang.
I’ve thought about the Judge using a combination of the two cartridges. First two would be 410, last 3 45 long. I think the judge makes for a fine home defense revolver. You could also think about penetration through drywall; the bird shot wont travel as much as the 45, so I would that would lower the risk to family in the house.
To depend upon 410 birdshot while acknowledging the pitiful penetration of the round is to accept that you are relying on a “psychological stop” to protect your family. If all you want is for the bad guy to say “Owwie! They’re shooting at me!” then why don’t you buy a pellet gun, or maybe airsoft?
Most sane people don’t want to be shot by *anything* and will stop the moment they encounter any resistance. Then again, most sane people don’t break into occupied houses. Are you really betting your life on the invader suddenly being convinced of the error of his ways and turning around to leave peacefully?
While *you* may deserve what you get for knowingly depending on a terrible tool, your family does not. Please, leave birdshot for shooting at little birdies.
Personally, I always considered the #4 to be the smallest of the Buckshot family, because I considered it the smallest suitable shot for use on medium to large sized mammals. I call it “Dog Shot”. A little too big for birds, a little too small for Deer.
I don’t consider anything that has the potential to be lethal to be inadequate for self defense. I’ve been all over the world in some rather nasty places with little more than my trusty pocket knife and have felt adequately, if not ideally, protected. While my first choice for a primary self defense tool would not be a .32 ACP, I would not discourage someone who owned one from using it for that purpose, and have been known to carry my P32 as a primary when conditions required it. Likewise, #4 out of a 20 gauge would be sufficient, albeit not ideal, in my mind.
The .410 bore is NOT a practical caliber for much of anything, IMHO. I think the .410 is a fun, sports shooting round. Let’s say it’s the .22LR of the hunting world. Relatively cheap compared to other bores, but able to be fired in relatively cheap guns. There’s lots of stuff you can kill with a .22LR, but most people would choose something bigger to hunt with, and almost nobody would pick a .22LR for self defense if they had a choice.
I think the .410 bore out of a handgun is just plain silly. You could carry a 6″ Glock 17L that was the same size as a Taurus Judge and have 17+ rounds, or if you like revolvers, a 4″ S&W 686 in .357 Magnum which will give you either one or TWO EXTRA ROUNDS. A .410 Bore firing slugs out of an 18″ Shotgun provides the same muzzle energy as a .357 Magnum out of a 4″ revolver.
#4 birdshot is absolutely NOT suitable for defense against a human or other large mammal! Box ‘o Truth has a good analysis with a few anecdotes to back this up. They also show what happens when you put shot through a rifled barrel.
#4 birdshot is absolutely NOT suitable for defense against a human or other large mammal! http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm has a good analysis with a few anecdotes to back this up. They also show what happens when you put shot through a rifled barrel: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot43.htm
Here’s a link to a test report on the Taurus Judge by “The Box O’ Truth”:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
Bottom line: For self-defense with a Taurus Judge, use the .45 Colt, not the .410!
I’m with B Woodman- when Federal can create a .410 load that doesn’t fire a bagel-shaped pattern after being fired through a rifled barrel? THEN, we’d have something. Until then, the Judge remains a fun idea getting brutally pimp-slapped in the face by the laws of physics.
There is a good article on the Judge on the “Box of Truth” website. I recommend anyone considering the Judge read it. The article echoes the concerns here that .410s are the Backstreet Boys of the shotgun world – wimpy, weak, not very useful but somehow “fun.”
Federal does sell a .410 “Defense Buckshot” marketed for the Judge. I shot some in my Springfield M6 Scout Rifle and it was fine. I had excellent practical accuracy with the round out to 75 feet.
Sorry – the link to the “Box of Truth” test on the Judge is http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
The Box O’ Truth has a very interesting article relating to this. Not the same calibers, but interesting none the less.
Their comments on shotshells:
“2. They are poor “Stoppers” against bad guys, due to insufficient penetration.
3. Use modern, well-designed JHP rounds for personal defense.”
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot30_3.htm
I don’t understand what the fascination is with the Judge. It’s a gun that performs two different functions, both poorly. It’s a horrible shotgun by shotgun standards. It’s too big and heavy by revolver standards. For $500 bucks you can easily buy a snub .38+p AND a shotgun and get a lot more use out of both.
I’ll tell ya what though, the novelty of it would be worth $500 to me if it could fire 45-70 gov’t…
-Don
^ What Matt Groom said.
My only useful addition to this discussion: our enemies in the sandbox average, what, 7″ front to back, vs. 10″+ for the corn-fed boys over here?
If you are talking about shooting the average T, or maybe a little kid, this would make sense. Otherwise, it seems like a good way to escalate hostilities in a direction opposite to what you intended.
Wow, #4!
That seems unlikely to penetrate clothing.
I’ll stick to the buck sized pellets.
I don’t get the donut shaped pattern either. Wierd.
Fun gun to shoot though.
I really doubt that the advertised velocity of 1200fps is out of a 2.5″ barrel. Published data is usually for the standard shotgun barrel length. You can get up to 1300fps pretty easy and some 12ga loads go to 1585fps but not much past. Somebody needs to shoot one over a chrony.
I had considered getting a Judge but I viewed the shotshell as a snake load. I guess it could be considered a goblin deterrent but I would rather have the 45 or a slug. The .410 cal is only cheap if you reload, which I do. Factory .410 ammo is easily 2-3 times the cost of 12ga or 20ga. It would be interesting to try working up a load that would have enough velocity out of the 2.5″ barrel.
7/16oz lead in a 2 1/2″ .410 is a little heavier than normal so pressures are going up. That pellet count definitely says that it is #4 birdshot which is quite different than #4 buckshot.
Standard load would be 1/2 oz. I was thinking that handloading for personal defense with #4 buckshot (0.24″ diameter) might be interesting. Take it a little less than 1/2oz (7 pellets instead of 10) and load it up to try to get 1100fps at the muzzle. The use of buffering material would probably be needed as I do not think that there is a wad designed for less that 1/2oz.
I love the .410 for dove season here. There is nothing better than watching the expression of people shooting (or should I say, who can’t shoot at all) a 12ga as I limit out and they are still looking for bird number 3 with two boxes of ammo gone. The .410 is an excellent small game hunting round. It just isn’t as easy. I usually don’t bother to tell the other hunters that I shoot that 870 at the skeet range.
I must be having a senior moment as 7/16 is less than 1/2.
Matt…are you confusing #4 buckshot (which is .24 inches) with #4 birdshot (.13 inches)?
Because they are a bit different.
As for the round….it appears to be completely inadequate. It MIGHT work at contact distances. Maybe. Using birdshot at close ranges in even a full sized shotgun is a risky endeavor, and as you’ve mentioned the Judge is quite a bit shorter.
Personally, if all I had was the Judge I’d either be shooting slugs or .45 colts out of it. #4 buckshot out of a .410 might work within 10 or so yards, but the range of self defense situations can’t always be predicted.
When push comes to shove I’ll shoot a person with a pellet gun before going hand to hand, and I’ll reach for a frying pan first. Birdshot is not ideal for self defense but frankly nothing is. Everything is a bit of a trade off and no gun is perfect for every situation.
I like to do some iking and woodsloafing. I like a snub nosed double action revovlever for that, and I have thought about (but passed on) the Judge. With #4 shot you have a decent all purpose round for what you’ll most likely be shooting at (feral dogs, coyotes, snakes) that still can run off the pot farmer you stumble accross. I’m with mskiles314 on a 2 #4s 3.45s loading. Much more utilitarian in the woods than a Glock.
That said I have a .410 and the buckshot rounds are pretty good and everywhere, so I don’t see the point.
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
Dick Cheney shot his friend with bird shot at a distance of 30ft IIRC and it didn’t do much damage.
The Box o Truth guys put the Judge through its paces a while back – The Taurus Judge Vs. The Box O’ Truth
Birdshot isn’t a reliable person killer even out of a 12 gauge. Even at very close range.
Out of a .410 snubbie? Ridiculous.
Damn, you’re right Regolith. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about firearms, but it never occurred to me that shot was not necessarily numbered in a linear fashion and that Buckshot is actually a different class of projectiles, not simply a larger shot designation. Although this does explain were the term “BB” comes from…
I guess that if you go bigger than the Buckshot class, you enter “Roundball” class and Slugs. I was definitely thinking of #4 buck, which is probably the smallest shot I’ve ever used other than the #7 1/2 birdshot they sell at Walmart. Weird.
In that case, bird shot is not useful for self defense. That’s kinda a “duh” sort of thing, me thinks.
I can’t stand the Judge. People think it’s a shotgun in their pocket…perhaps, but the tiniest shotgun possible. Those easy to carry Bond Arms derringer .410s always made sense to me – snakes sneak up on you and they’re hard to hit. I guess you can say the same of evil men, but then again you need to hit them hard. It always seemed to me like peppering someone with small shot from a pistol was both ineffective and asking to be sued. Crazy risk to bystanders. And who said this was less-than-lethal? I don’t think so. It’s just in a pointless limbo between LTL and lethal enough.
Matt, don’t beat your self up. It is an easy mistake to make.
This is a short range handgun self defense load.
Most handgun fights take place at extremely close range.
This will do the job at a few feet.
From the original article: “I am interesting in your opinions. I don’t consider myself very knowledgeable in this area.”
(I’m pretty sure that word was meant to be “interested”.
)
I dont think this is exactly rocket science. The FBI bases their standard on certain factors and if you agree with those factors (mainly, that you don’t always get a clear frontal shot but rather close quarters combat is a hectic and chaotic business, thus you might have to shoot through the attackers arm, or at an oblique angle, etc.) then their insistence of minimum penetration of about 12″, give or take, makes sense. (’Tis (12″ minimum penetration) more like a guide line than a rule.
) Also, even with a clear frontal shot, to reach vital organs such as the heart and lungs, you have to penetrate bone – those pellets were how big and heavy, again? Seems like a pretty clear case of ammunition failing to reach acceptable minimum standard to be considered effective, to me.
mskiles314:
“1. Numerous instances of self defense involving handguns are limited to brandishing the weapon only. And the Judge has a formidable profile.
2. I’ve heard from self defense trainers that handgun engagements last only 1-3 shots.”
According to your point 1, you would be happy to have a piece of soap carved into a firearm shape and painted black as your self-defense weapon, then?
Just like any other kind of psychological stop may take place, relying on that to happen is to rely on never meeting an opponent with any amount of determination. In other words, only preparing to fight the easiest possible opponents. Hardly a robust survival strategy, I would think.
As for your point 2, either find better trainers or learn to pay better attention to them. Anyone claiming a firefight will last 1-3 rounds, period, is talking out of their ass. That 1-3 rounds may or may not be an average number of rounds fired, but believing that the average is what will happen and training according to that assumption (as in, “the average gun fight is only 1-3 shots fired so I won’t be needing a reload”), is training to only win 50% of possible fights. Kind of the same as relying on a psychological stop, come to think of it… If you’re happy with the thought that if you ever have to defend yourself you have an at least 50% chance of losing, then I guess you’re good to go, but personally, I want my odds to be waaayyyyy the hell better. Also, as with any other statistic, an average alone, without other information, is a useless bit of trivia. Before you can draw any conclusions about the data, you need to know if the rest of the data points are close ot the average, or all over the place – in other words, you need to know what the standard deviation is.
I see this overlooked most of the time,there is always the possibility of a contact wound.If all else fails,put the muzzle on the man and fire.That would be very lethal,IMHO.
The fight cannot be assumed to take place at a distance.There are plenty of cases where the fight was to get the weapon away.
A .410 load from contact range would be a devestating fight ender.I can’t think of too many revolvers that would pack the punch of buckshot or a slug.
I think the gun is a wonderful idea.
On smaller pellets and penetration.
Where I live (Denmark) , 4 mm pellets are the biggest ones permitted for Hunting (buckshots are illegal) ..
thats another thing ,but:
From a full length 12 gauge shotgun, I’ve seen what 4 mm pellets in a good hard load does to a deer. When the distance is below 10-15 meters, and if your shot placement is right, a 60 pound deer can be instantly incapitated with 4 mm pellets. I had one where both front legs were shattered from a too low first shot. second one tore trough lungs and ribs.
I know that deers are not humans. But I dont want to get hit with a 36 gram shot travelling about 400 m/s filled with 4 mm pellets. It’s not optimal, but if it kills deers and foxes at up to 15 yards, it’s not useless against humans.
But then again, thats 12 gauge and not 410. And its full size gun, not pocket size.
Putting faith in birdshot could get you killed, it’s as simple as that. If you need to use a gun in a self-defence situation you need a calibre that will end the fight as effectively and as rapidly as possible. If you have the Judge, load it with .45 Colt. I’ve heard of some people wanting to put birdshot into the first few chambers for self-defence- but some kind of humanitarian notion of wounding a violent criminal in a life or death situation is foolhardy in the extreme.
You can not depend on a calibre with less than optimal terminal ballistics. Sure, it’s possible under specific circumstances that the .410 might do the job but if you are in a life-threatening situation you cannot bet your life- and perhaps that of your family- on a cartridge that may or may not work. Using birdshot may only serve to wound or enrage a violent criminal- and to use the average shots per gunfight figure- do you want to be involved in a shoot-out where you fire one or two shots intended to bring down small birds at a well-built, violent criminal while he’s firing a 9mm at you? Chances are you won’t make it to the .45 Colt cartridges further around the cylinder.
Federal promoting birdshot as a self-defence round are, in my opinion, encouraging reckless behaviour which could get innocent people killed. The Judge is a nifty gun with some unique applications but birdshot is for birds- .45 Colt is for two-legged predators.
All handgun rounds are a compromise.
If it is between a hit with birdshot packing 700 ft.lbs. and miss with a .45 colt I will take the hit.
Obviously you want the next couple of chambers to hold the .45.
I would not discount 700 ft. lbs. of birdshot at close range.
Talk of “not useful for defense” is irrational.
I live in a country where all you could ever get “legitimately” is bird-shot. But here, even the police are ignorant of the calibres: as long as it is a “gun” it is “considered” lethal: this is a police force that sometimes chases robbers with a Tear-gas gun (It has a BIG muzzle, so it must be a DEADLY weapon!)
I can only get bird-shot, and while okay for training, I need something for SD. So: what if I un-crimp some shells, pour out the bird-shot, and replace with same weight in ball-bearings, the re-crimp? I know this must have been discussed in several of the forums out there, but I just can’t seem to find any clear answer. Would it work, with any reasonable accuracy, or do I just continue to practice how to put as much bird-shot on target as possible? What do you think?
Fred wrote:
“All handgun rounds are a compromise.”
Ah. So your logic is that since even the most potent of handgun rounds is a compromise, compromising some more on top of that is just dandy? “Why bother with a compromise round like a 9mm or .45, why not just pack .22 short” – something like that?
“If it is between a hit with birdshot packing 700 ft.lbs. and miss with a .45 colt I will take the hit.
Obviously you want the next couple of chambers to hold the .45.”
Hold on. If the birdshot is effective, why chamber .45 rounds at all? If the birdshot is ineffective, why bother with it at all?
Do remember that at contact ranges, the birdshot travels in one clump, and once it spreads out it has also lost so much kinetic energy as to be fairly harmless to a human target.
“Talk of “not useful for defense” is irrational.”
Oh? Seems to me that all the reasoned discussion is coming from the sceptical side, and those claiming shooting people with birdshot is the way to go seem to resort to the “well I wouldn’t want to get shot with it”-level of arguments. (I would not personally like to get a paper cut, but that doesn’t mean I’d advocate the use of a piece of paper as a self-defense instrument. There is a difference between “unpleasant” and “stops a goal-oriented attacker fast”.)
@Tony
Sure fine you win.
I don’t advocate birdshot as the optimal defense load.
The discussion was supposed to be about the legitimacy of birdshot in the judge as a self defense load. My point is that it does have its place.
I am sure after you get hit in the face with 700 ft.lbs. of birdshot you will finish off the badguy with your 44 magnum or whatever.
I will stick to my 1911/230 grain hardball.
I surrender.
For the education of all…
http://www.commonwealthcriminaljusticeacademy.com/articles/HandgunStoppingPower.pdf
@ Y-Man:
Prohibitions against shotgun shot size, such as is apparently practiced in Nigeria and in Denmark, are incredibly silly. Whatever you take out of the shell can easily be replaced since unlike a pistol or rifle, it is not caliber dependent. It is weight dependent, however. The safest and probably easiest thing to do in your case would be to find larger shot of sufficient roundness, such as steel ball bearings used in certain industrial applications, and match the weight of the lead shot to the replacement pellets, or use slightly less. If the replacement projectiles weigh more, you’ll increase the pressure when you fire it, and that could potentially be dangerous.
If you have access to a good heat source, you could probably use the shot that you remove to cast larger sized buckshot out of lead. I don’t know if these things can be bought in Nigeria, but there are several molds made for fishing weights that would make very effective projectiles for shotguns. Fishing weights (the small ones that are made of soft lead that you clamp onto the fishing line) should work pretty well. Keep in mind that roundness of the projectile will equate to better accuracy, and depending on the range you intend to use it at, that may or may not be important. A buckshot mold is quite possibly the easiest mold to make, and any machinist should be able to make one pretty easily if you just show them pictures of a bullet mold.
The hardest part will be re-crimping your shot shells, which without specialized shotshell reloading dies can be a nightmare (I’ve actually tried this!). If you have access to this equipment, or have found a method that works, then you’re in business. Good luck!
mmmm…
the federal birdshot seem a tentative for a dissuasive ammunition with a limitated lesive power.
the first shot with the birdshot and the successives with 45 Long Colt..
when the federal will produce a cartridge like this:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg213-e.htm
(not silenced, obviously)
i suppose that it is the right ammunition for the jugde.
What do you know, Old Painless just posted a report on Buckshot at AR15.com.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=886723
jdun1911, good timing. Thanks for the link
I’m no fan of birdshot for self defense, as per the Box O’ Truth. Sure, they might work, but I want to improve my odds as much as possible. However, I want to point out that Federal is also making a load with 4 pellets of #000 buckshot. That would seem to be more appropriate.
I do think the Judge could make a dandy woods gun, much like the Bond Arms Snake Slayer derringers.
@Matt Groom,
I did the steel ball bearing swap: just got back from the “range”: worked perfectly!. I was firing at a light steel plate target at about 30 feet, with a Turkish semi-auto 12-gauge. Steel plate was PERFORATED! (Videos available, Steve…might mail you some…)
I modified and fired 4 rounds (Varying sizes of ball bearings, filled up a bit with bird-shot to get the weight up and stop the steel balls rattling loosely): but I noticed that the time I put the modified round directly in the magazine (rather than behind a non-modified round) the little raised guide “bump” in the magazine pressed into the wadding/ seal I put in to hold the balls in, and some grains of powder escaped. Still fired okay though. Left my bore DIRTY!
What am I saying? If there’s nothing but BB bird-shot like we have here in Nigeria: replace with ball bearings in a safe and proper manner for SD. Get good grade steel ball bearings, weigh to ensure the replacements are same or less than the weight of the removed lead bird-shot, and ensure you seal properly (I used a light covering of adhesive on a cut-out paper wad.) Also; when loading the weapon: put an un-modified round into the magazine first; BEFORE the modified: this provides a flat surface for the face of the modified rounds to rest upon.
I must confess though: the first round was fired from a “remote firing rig” (I basically found a tree with the right kind of horizontal branch; zip-tied the shotgun to said branch, and used a strong nylon twine to fire it! Recoil broke the zip-ties! Shotgun got quite dirty, so I had to do a quick field cleaning…)
I will be getting some AAA shot soon, that could serve as my primary HD/SD ammo (Nothing like Buckshot in Nigeria!), while I keep my BB for the “bitty birds”!
Y-man, good job!
Ok, I’e got to weigh in on this again
I have fired 4 different loads from my 4″ barreled (includng the chamber portion) American Derringer Model 4 .45 Colt/.410 (2-1/2″ OR 3″). The results at 21′ were as follows:
#4 .410 BIRDSHOT Federal 2-1/2″ (”Personal Defense”) — about 60 pellets ABSOLUTLY NOT ADAQUATE FOR PERSONAL DEFENSE except for possibly aganst the occasional dive-bombing, nest protecting blackbird!
3×000 .410 BUCKSHOT Winchester 2-1/2″ — a good 12″ pattern of 3 .36″ 68gr centered but a little high of the aim point. I think I’ jerking this a little and even dry-firing (with snap-caps) shows the hammer fall brings the muzzle up about 6″ this distance so that may account for the slightly high pattern.
5×000 .410 BUCKSHOT Winchester 3″ — a GREAT 12″ pattern of 5 .36″ 68gr centered but a little high … see above. THE BEST DAMNED CLOSE-UP AND PERSONAL PERSONAL DEFENSE HANDGUN ROUND I CAN IMAGINE! It will certianly clear the hallway, shoot throuth the car door if necessary (from the inside) to discourage a car jacking, and if there are 2 bad guys, you have another round waiting for him just in case he didn’t notice what happened to his buddy! I do not by any means recommend this round/weapon combo for someone who is a bit timid about recoil. After 6 rounds, it HURTS! It is not a firefight weapon nor was it intended to be. If you think you’r going to be in one, get the proper license and real AK-47! It’s what they are made for. It’s also
.45 Colt Winchester 225gr JHP — 12″ groups a little high and left. Great if you can hit even a stationary target at 20′ with ANY HANDGUN in the dark, while under stress or perhaps while being fired at (being fired at is also classified as being under stress)!
I have a box of 4×000 410 Federal Personal Defense rounds coming late this week and next Monday (after my hand heals) I’ll try out a few. I suspect this is the round I will settle on.
Dick Getty
Dick, thanks for the comment. Very interesting. Please let us know how the Federal 4×000 works out for you.
Be careful using steel shot. Most lead shot loads have powder that is too fast for steel loads. Steel shot does not pass through either the forcing cone or the choke of a shotgun as easily as lead. You can get dangerous pressure spikes!
@TMCC
You are right! I did some more shooting with my steel ball bearings and then thoroughly/ meticulously inspected the forcing cone, and the barrel. Obviously: the steel balls have caused a few glancing dents in the forcing cone, and some rough streaks down the bore of my shotgun. Of course: I have discontinued my “modifying” antics. (I got rid of all the ammo stock I had modified.)
I do not have access to equipment/ facilities to re-work/ modify regular lead loads: I’ll stick to the regular AAA stuff for now: at least my shotgun is not irreparably damaged by my “irresponsible” ammo modification.
Thanks!
I was able to buy 3 boxes of FEDERAL PERSONAL DEFENSE 2-1/2″ .410 4×000 BUCKSHOT rounds late last week and got to the range yesterday.
NOTE:
The pellets are copper plated thus reducing the deformation as they travel through the barrel.
I only had time to fire a couple of rounds but here are the results:
At 21′ (7 yards) 1 barrel fired a pattern 3″ group and the other a 2″ wide by 7″ high group with 3 of the pellets grouping at 2″ x 3″ and closer to the aim point than the 4th.
The wadding or “cup” also tears a hole in a paper target that’s not well backed-up).
The recoil was less than the .45 Colt rounds or the Winchester 2-1/2″ 3×000 Buckshot fired previously and was quite acceptable.
So, refering to my previous post, above:
1. If you are sure that you can fire accurately under pressure, I would have to recommend the Federal 4×000 rounds. Placing 3-4 .36″, 68gr pellets traveling at “1200fps” according to Federal over a 2″ x 3″ area at 21′ should make a huge hole nearly clean through a bad-guy. An awful mess that would bleed out as fast as anything I can imagine. At 10′ it should cause even more concentrated damage.
This round should be great out to 30′ or so (if fired accurately) which is about as far as you are likely to ever have to use a pistol in a self-defense situaton.
2. If your are NOT so sure that you can get off an accurate shot under pressure (a first round hit on a man-sized target) AND you can handle the recoil from the Winchester 3″ 5×000 Buck, then I would use it rather than the Federal as the spread is greater and has one more pellet (25% greater weight throw) but 25′-30′ is probably the maximum effective comfort range .
THE SIX MAIN RULES OF SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING ARE:
PRACTICE!, PRACTICE! PRACTICE!
FRONT-SIGHT!, FRONT-SIGHT!, FRONT-SIGHT!
Would that Federal try a 3″ 6-7×000 Buckshot load for the Judge and American Derringer M-4.
These are just my observations and opinions.
Comments?
people keep say9ing that the judges rifling makes i shoot donuts 410 rounds have shot cups so the 410 round dont touch the rifling wtf you all are stupid
-Just getting into Krav Maga myself. Can you recommend and dvd’s or videos for me to watch?
While birdshot is not applicable for self defense you could use a .410 Winchester Super-X “000″ Buckshot (5 Pellet) round.
I don’t think anyone wants to get hit with a 70 grain ball.
what about a “buck & ball” handload in 3 inch in the judge 3 mag??
seems to me a woman cowering in the corner as a man breaks in the window and enters the house couldn’t hit anything most nights, giving the “buck” a copper plated BB load, with a “ball” of 000 .36 she just might hit something with 5 rounds across the room??
So, today I got back to the range and fired 3/4 box (15 2-1/2″ Federal 4×000 buck .410 rounds. A bunch of them at 40′. This from a 4″ barreled American Derringer Model 4. That 4″ includes the chamber so the actual “barrel” is only about 1-1/2″. The pellets are copper plated as apposed to the Winchester 3×000 2-1/2″ and 5×000 3″ .410 rounds.
The powder load in the Federal rounds has obviously been lightened up (perhaps Federal is also usng a faster burnng powder) to compensate for the short barreled weapons the round is designed for (the Tarus Judge and other short barreled pistols).
Also, the grouping of the buckshot from the Federal rounds IS MUCH MORE COMPACT than the Winchester rounds. At 40′, 6-9″ groups can be expected! (only 1 group out of the 4 shots I fired was larger).
The recoil from the Federal rounds IN THIS WEAPON (weighs just under 1 pound) is very acceptable.
I found the 3″ 5×000 Winchester rounds to have an unacceptably harsh recoil (FOR ME) in this weapon.
But, remember, the Judge weighs 3 times as much as my little derringer.
So, I hereby revise my effective range estimates for the Federal 2-1/2″ 4×000 copper plated .410 rounds fired from a Model 4 American Derringer from 30′ out to 50′
Close enough for government work?
To Bugeater: If your lady is “cowering in the corner” then the Judge or a large caliber derrnger or any other large caliber weapon WILL NOT BE SUITABLE FOR HER! DON’T OVER-PURCHASE IN CALIBER. She won’t practice with it!
Pistol markmanship (or as my oldest daughter would say “markswomenshp”) does not come automatically. IT TAKES PRACTICE! IT TAKES REPITITON! TO TRAIN THE SHOOTERS HANDS/EYES AND MUSSELS TO WORK TOGETHER FOR ACCURATE BULLET PLACEMENT UNDER STRESS. PRAY AND SPRAY IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE SELF-DEFENSE TECHNIQUE!
See also my 2 other posts, above
Questions?? Comments??
dck, very interesting. Thanks for posting your results.
I just purchased a 3 inch chamber judge with 3 inch barrel.
I saw federal handgun 2.5 inch # 4 in the store, but I wanted the extra power of 3 inch shells.
I purchased 3 inch # 4 H&H.
I want an effective gun for self defense and snakes for my wife to use.
I have not fired it yet, but put 3 410 shells and 2 45 long colts in the gun.
The long colts are expensive, so I will likely only shoot 410 shells out of the gun.
Federal, should provide detailed balistic for 410 shot that all in the industry can challenge.
Federal is a good company and should have good products, so let the industry put them to the test.
I spent $525.00 on the 3 inch chamber Judge, I hope I didn’t waste my money.
What 410 round, preferably in 3 inch shells should I use so my wife can have a personal defense gun in the house and I can defend against snake in our yard?
Tom:
It depends on how the amount of recoil you and/or your wife can COMFORTABLY handle.
I personally would not want to rely on #4 BIRDSHOT for self-defense if a better alternative is available.
Normal .410 loads are designed to be used in long-barreled shotguns.
000 BUCKSHOT is .36″ in diameter. The same as a .357/38/9mm round).
The 2/1/2″ Federal 4×000 BUCKSHOT makes an excellent round especially designed for short-barreled handguns as the powder charge and recoil is reduced. The buckshot is also copper plated. In my .45 Colt/.410 derringer with a 4″ barrel (including the chamber) it fires a pattern between 2″ and 3″ at 20′ The pattern at 40′ is about 12″. Good enough for snakes of all types!
(Visualize 4 or 5 of these impacting your chest all at once!)
Winchester makes a 3″ 5×000 buckshot .410 round (the buckshot is NOT PLATED) which has a more hefty recoil. The pattern with my derringer is about 9″ at 20′ using this round. It comes in boxes of 5.
Don’t try to push your wife into the 3″ .410 loads if she is even a bit shy about recoil. She won’t practice enough to become effective with the weapon.
The Winchester .45 Colt JHP is also a handful from a recoil standpoint.
The Federal 4×000 has more throw-weight (4×68 grains = 272 grains) and at “1200 fps” (according to Federal) as apposed to the 225 grain .45 Colt JHP at around 900 fps. I have also found that this .45 Colt round tends to tumble out of my short barreled derringer thus reducing it’s accuracy at longer than ” ‘cross the card table” ranges. This, I think, is because there’s only about 1″ of rifling. With the Judge, or other longer barreled handgun, it would probably stabilize properly.
Buy a box of each and try them. See which works best for you.
I have found that 8-10 rounds per session is about all I can handle using the .45 Colt, 2-1/2″ OR 3″ Winchester rounds. Using the 2-1/2″ Federal (either the #4 birdshot or 4×000 BUCKSHOT) I can manage up to about 15 rounds before my hand becomes sore and I get recoil shy.
ALSO keep in mind that your Judge weighs a lot more than my 15oz derringer. The perceived recoil will be somewhat less.
The secret here, I think, is that if you’re going to be in a firefight, get a full auto AK! So for a pistol, 2 to 5 rounds should be plenty. WHICH MEANS: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!
The Federal 4×000 is difficult to get, but at http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=533166, you can order or backorder a box of 20.
Just my thoughts
I am a an OLD 410 fan and have used them for most everything since November 1950. A 410 slug will take down a deer, feral pig and a crook.
I’ve modified every type of shot and created some of my own for ducks.
I’ve purchased the Judge with a 6 and 1/2 inch barrel for home defense. First my house is fair size but most pistol are hard to aim when nerveous. Since my average room is 16 foot square, it is certain that if I fire the Judge at an intruder with #7 bird shot he will be immediately disoriented by multiple shot stinging his hide, the second shot will be #4s if he has not run out of the house and if he is still there he will have to deal with two standard 410 slugs. A fifth round will not be necessary.
More than likely, an intruder will be about 10 feet away if I am forced to shoot the #7s will hurt severly, the #4 even worse. The slugs hopefully wil not exit but distort as they do in a pig or deer. It will not be pretty.
At a military range I’ve put (7) seven 45 rounds in a 3 and 1/2 inch grouping consistantly on target for most of my military career. However, for home defense against an intruder the Judge is what I will use. I’ll have to Mop Up the mess, and the cops will follow a bloody trail to the Emergency room.
I will feel secure regardless. Do not ever under estimate the 410, it is deadly.
At 10 feet #7s get your attention and is a mind changing if on the reciving end.
Dick and DCK I enjoyed both yoour comments and test.
Hey Y-Man i am new to the reloading arena, and have some questions about melting down birdshot into buckshot or slugs. Can you email me at Mabbus4 [ at ] hotmail [dot[ com. Thanks