Comments on: Thoughts on the SEAL Snipers http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:19:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jason http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-71585 Jason Fri, 16 Sep 2011 02:26:41 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-71585 They used thermal scopes to see the pirates. 2 of the pirates were visable through the little glass window and 1 was sitting down. I saw this information on the military or discovery channel. Forget exactly which one. Point is they wouldn't have been able to take the shot without thermal optics. They used thermal scopes to see the pirates. 2 of the pirates were visable through the little glass window and 1 was sitting down. I saw this information on the military or discovery channel. Forget exactly which one. Point is they wouldn’t have been able to take the shot without thermal optics.

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]]> By: Falcon500 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-44166 Falcon500 Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:42:29 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-44166 Sound Suppressors reducing power of weapons in video games can be attributed to the use of subsonic ammo, which moves at a slower rate of speed, normally leading to lower damage. Sound Suppressors reducing power of weapons in video games can be attributed to the use of subsonic ammo, which moves at a slower rate of speed, normally leading to lower damage.

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]]> By: Sloan http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-33324 Sloan Tue, 11 May 2010 15:00:04 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-33324 Here's the deal with poi shift. Suppressors can either negatively or positively affect the grouping of a weapon. On pistols, it usually just changes the location of the grouping. Look at DeGroat Tactical Armaments suppressors. They have 10 positions to set at the one closest to your unsuppressed shot grouping. Operators have stated that with the attachment of the KAC M4QD suppresor, their shot group may not be off at all but most have stated their shot groupings as being off by 30 inches at 50M. It all depends on the tolerances and how accurately concentric the baffles are. The gases can "push" the projectile either way if they "hit" the bullet at a different time or angle. Surefire suppressors are of excellent concentricity "wrapping" the bullet, squeezing like a banana out of its peel. The group is therefore tightened and a velocity of about 30fps is gained. Here’s the deal with poi shift. Suppressors can either negatively or positively affect the grouping of a weapon. On pistols, it usually just changes the location of the grouping. Look at DeGroat Tactical Armaments suppressors. They have 10 positions to set at the one closest to your unsuppressed shot grouping. Operators have stated that with the attachment of the KAC M4QD suppresor, their shot group may not be off at all but most have stated their shot groupings as being off by 30 inches at 50M. It all depends on the tolerances and how accurately concentric the baffles are. The gases can “push” the projectile either way if they “hit” the bullet at a different time or angle. Surefire suppressors are of excellent concentricity “wrapping” the bullet, squeezing like a banana out of its peel. The group is therefore tightened and a velocity of about 30fps is gained.

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]]> By: prettypete http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-16195 prettypete Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:32:42 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-16195 Great job, SEAL Snipers! Great job, SEAL Snipers!

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]]> By: Lance http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-11823 Lance Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:13:08 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-11823 I agree with Core on this. Most sea operations and operators use M-14 style sniper rifles. I agree with Core on this. Most sea operations and operators use M-14 style sniper rifles.

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]]> By: Core http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-10757 Core Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:33:26 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-10757 I don't know the details but, I would guess they used M14 platforms with infra-red scopes; I used to use these in the Navy myself. The .308 BTHP rounds are accurate out to 800+ meters, and have minimal deflection when fired through standard glass windows. There are special purpose rounds designed for glass penetration, as well as techniques used to break the glass while firing a kill shot at the same time. But like I said I don't know the specifics. I don’t know the details but, I would guess they used M14 platforms with infra-red scopes; I used to use these in the Navy myself. The .308 BTHP rounds are accurate out to 800+ meters, and have minimal deflection when fired through standard glass windows. There are special purpose rounds designed for glass penetration, as well as techniques used to break the glass while firing a kill shot at the same time. But like I said I don’t know the specifics.

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]]> By: subby http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-10433 subby Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:09:25 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-10433 And no doubt in these circumstances, with the time they had to prepare. These snipers were the best of the best of the best. And no doubt in these circumstances, with the time they had to prepare. These snipers were the best of the best of the best.

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]]> By: Ronnie Conrad http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8869 Ronnie Conrad Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:37:39 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8869 Hey, that's their job. Yes they must be good,,,NO Great. Look at what they do for a living? They train every day, for such. I would expect? NO LESS from the Best. That's why the wash out rate is so high, there's no room for for those who (think) it can't be done. Remenber that little train when you were a kid???..lol..That's them! They don't think...THEY KNOW! Hey, that’s their job. Yes they must be good,,,NO Great. Look at what they do for a living? They train every day, for such. I would expect? NO LESS from the Best. That’s why the wash out rate is so high, there’s no room for for those who (think) it can’t be done. Remenber that little train when you were a kid???..lol..That’s them! They don’t think…THEY KNOW!

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]]> By: CAPT William Sims, USN (Ret) http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8845 CAPT William Sims, USN (Ret) Sun, 19 Apr 2009 14:05:34 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8845 It is not true that a Navy destroyer is a stable platform--they are designed for battle and speed, not comfort. Destroyers will roll in even nearly "calm" waters when there is ocean swell. They are by nature top-heavy, and the hull shape does little to correct roll. Aircraft carriers and cruise ships are stable, destroyers are not! Take it from a Destroyerman. The snipers had to allow for pitch and roll. Period. It is not true that a Navy destroyer is a stable platform–they are designed for battle and speed, not comfort. Destroyers will roll in even nearly “calm” waters when there is ocean swell. They are by nature top-heavy, and the hull shape does little to correct roll.

Aircraft carriers and cruise ships are stable, destroyers are not!

Take it from a Destroyerman.

The snipers had to allow for pitch and roll. Period.

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]]> By: Carl http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8794 Carl Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:15:05 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8794 Wouldn´t the weight of a suppressor also change the way a rifle recoils, and consequently change the point of impact somewhat? Wouldn´t the weight of a suppressor also change the way a rifle recoils, and consequently change the point of impact somewhat?

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]]> By: Heath http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8783 Heath Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:54:00 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8783 Someone totally needs to shoot some video on the subject of bullet deflection through glass and plastic and post it on YouTube. Someone totally needs to shoot some video on the subject of bullet deflection through glass and plastic and post it on YouTube.

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]]> By: Paul_In_Houston http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8782 Paul_In_Houston Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:09:15 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8782 Vote For David: In Eric Haney's book, "Inside Delta Force", the teams training for taking down airplane hijackers, in a plane that was on the ground, were worried about bullet deflection if a sniper had to shoot through a cockpit window. So, Delta Airlines gave them a bunch of cockpit (and other) windows to test for themselves (the President of Delta Airlines was a strong backer of Delta Force's [PURE coincidence of names] work on this problem, for obvious reasons, and gave enormous cooperation [at great expense; making revenue-producing airliners available ain't cheap]). Their tests showed that deflection, at the ranges from the window to the target (inside a cockpit that was probably larger than the interior of that lifeboat) was negligible. The book is a fascinating read; see what else it had to say about ways they tested for trying to disable an aircraft on the ground. He does NOT go into what works, but a lot on what DOESN'T (commercial aircraft are a lot tougher than yopu would imagine). - Vote For David:

In Eric Haney’s book, “Inside Delta Force”, the teams training for taking down airplane hijackers, in a plane that was on the ground, were worried about bullet deflection if a sniper had to shoot through a cockpit window.

So, Delta Airlines gave them a bunch of cockpit (and other) windows to test for themselves (the President of Delta Airlines was a strong backer of Delta Force’s [PURE coincidence of names] work on this problem, for obvious reasons, and gave enormous cooperation [at great expense; making revenue-producing airliners available ain't cheap]).

Their tests showed that deflection, at the ranges from the window to the target (inside a cockpit that was probably larger than the interior of that lifeboat) was negligible.

The book is a fascinating read; see what else it had to say about ways they tested for trying to disable an aircraft on the ground. He does NOT go into what works, but a lot on what DOESN’T (commercial aircraft are a lot tougher than yopu would imagine).

-

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]]> By: Vote For David http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8776 Vote For David Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:57:43 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8776 Shooting through windows, even windows at an angle to the bullet trajectory: with a low-powered handgun it changes POI by inches, tops. A rifle, probably single-digits of inches. The Box O' Truth shot through a bunch of car windows and found the changes in trajectory to be fairly predictable. I don't put it past our men to put one smack-on their target through a window, whether it had been shot out or not. Shooting through windows, even windows at an angle to the bullet trajectory: with a low-powered handgun it changes POI by inches, tops. A rifle, probably single-digits of inches. The Box O’ Truth shot through a bunch of car windows and found the changes in trajectory to be fairly predictable. I don’t put it past our men to put one smack-on their target through a window, whether it had been shot out or not.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8769 Steve Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:03:29 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8769 Sven, you are indeed right about the vibrations of the barrel will be changed due to the added weight. I personally do not buy into the gas turbulence theory with regards to suppressors. I have also heard it mentioned that muzzle breaks also reduce the gas turbulence. I don't think the effect would have any noticeable impact on shot placement. But saying that, I am <strong>no</strong> expert on external ballistics, just my experience. Sven, you are indeed right about the vibrations of the barrel will be changed due to the added weight.

I personally do not buy into the gas turbulence theory with regards to suppressors. I have also heard it mentioned that muzzle breaks also reduce the gas turbulence. I don’t think the effect would have any noticeable impact on shot placement. But saying that, I am no expert on external ballistics, just my experience.

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]]> By: Sven Ortmann http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8768 Sven Ortmann Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:28:33 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8768 Suppressors don't "bend" barrels (well, not to a relevant extent). The silencer's effect on the point of impact is strong and stems from its ability to change the swinging of the barrel (it's related to the reason for free-floated barrels). The change is consistent and zeroing helps to neutralize the suppressors' effect. External ballistics of bullets can be influenced by suppressors in another way as well. The effect is associated with the gas turbulence close to the muzzle (it's reduced). Suppressed weapons have therefore often less shot dispersion than without suppressor. Simultaneous police sniping can be achieved with electronic means - the snipers hold the trigger as long as they're on target and the system makes their rifles fire (with that piezo-electric metal that bends due to electric current). The same can even be combined with video imagery of the scope field of view for the police officer in charge at the crime scene. Suppressors don’t “bend” barrels (well, not to a relevant extent).
The silencer’s effect on the point of impact is strong and stems from its ability to change the swinging of the barrel (it’s related to the reason for free-floated barrels). The change is consistent and zeroing helps to neutralize the suppressors’ effect.

External ballistics of bullets can be influenced by suppressors in another way as well.
The effect is associated with the gas turbulence close to the muzzle (it’s reduced). Suppressed weapons have therefore often less shot dispersion than without suppressor.

Simultaneous police sniping can be achieved with electronic means – the snipers hold the trigger as long as they’re on target and the system makes their rifles fire (with that piezo-electric metal that bends due to electric current). The same can even be combined with video imagery of the scope field of view for the police officer in charge at the crime scene.

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]]> By: jdun1911 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8765 jdun1911 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 04:27:39 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8765 Multiple targets simultaneously hit by sniper teams isn't new. Three SAS sniper teams with security protection killed three suicide bomber that left their safe house in Iraq. All three bomber was shot in the head simultaneously. It was reported a few years back in a magazine IIRC. Multiple targets simultaneously hit by sniper teams isn’t new.

Three SAS sniper teams with security protection killed three suicide bomber that left their safe house in Iraq. All three bomber was shot in the head simultaneously. It was reported a few years back in a magazine IIRC.

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]]> By: chris http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8758 chris Thu, 16 Apr 2009 02:13:47 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8758 I have yet to see anything saying three headshots. I have seen it stated three dead pirates. How do we know there weren't two snipers per target? Thats how I would set it up if I had the resources. I have yet to see anything saying three headshots. I have seen it stated three dead pirates. How do we know there weren’t two snipers per target? Thats how I would set it up if I had the resources.

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]]> By: Linoge http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8753 Linoge Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:03:11 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8753 Allow me to second Heath - I have never been aboard a DDG while she was underway, but I have seen many of them out on the ocean, and I have served on an FFG and an LPD. Short of full-blown carriers, there is no such thing as a "stable platform" when underway. 10 foot seas is about all it takes to get a good pitching situation going on, and if you are not steering into those seas, you are <em>guaranteed</em> rolls, and possibly good ones at that. Barring the platform, however, the lifeboat is <em>certainly</em> going to be bouncing around like the cork it is, especially if she was in the ship's wake. No matter how it breaks down, that was an awesome shot, made by awesome individuals... who undoubtedly just consider it to be part of their jobs. Major bravo zulus to everyone involved. Allow me to second Heath – I have never been aboard a DDG while she was underway, but I have seen many of them out on the ocean, and I have served on an FFG and an LPD. Short of full-blown carriers, there is no such thing as a “stable platform” when underway. 10 foot seas is about all it takes to get a good pitching situation going on, and if you are not steering into those seas, you are guaranteed rolls, and possibly good ones at that.

Barring the platform, however, the lifeboat is certainly going to be bouncing around like the cork it is, especially if she was in the ship’s wake.

No matter how it breaks down, that was an awesome shot, made by awesome individuals… who undoubtedly just consider it to be part of their jobs. Major bravo zulus to everyone involved.

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]]> By: Jamal http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8752 Jamal Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:43:40 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8752 I was surprised at the proposition that the snipers would have removed their scopes. The Leupold 3.5-10 doesn't seem like overkill at 25 to 30 yards. Mine seems fine anyway. That said, it's one thing for armchair shooters to make some small groups at the range. It's completely another to do it with the world watching and some real hero's life on the line. Kudos to the SEALs. If any are reading this, I wish that I could pick up a round of cold beverages for you guys. I was surprised at the proposition that the snipers would have removed their scopes. The Leupold 3.5-10 doesn’t seem like overkill at 25 to 30 yards. Mine seems fine anyway.

That said, it’s one thing for armchair shooters to make some small groups at the range. It’s completely another to do it with the world watching and some real hero’s life on the line. Kudos to the SEALs. If any are reading this, I wish that I could pick up a round of cold beverages for you guys.

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]]> By: Heath http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/16/more-details-on-the-seal-snipers/comment-page-1/#comment-8751 Heath Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:27:22 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=6001#comment-8751 Avtomat, have you ever seen the wake from an Arliegh Burke class destroyer? Considering what was going on I can almost guarantee the ship was at a modified General Quarters. That means both screws were a turning... they stir up a LOT of water even at slow speeds. I used to have a picture of myself along with the rest of the Engineering department standing under those monsters on USS Milius (DDG-69) while she was in dry dock. They're HUGE. Avtomat, have you ever seen the wake from an Arliegh Burke class destroyer? Considering what was going on I can almost guarantee the ship was at a modified General Quarters. That means both screws were a turning… they stir up a LOT of water even at slow speeds.

I used to have a picture of myself along with the rest of the Engineering department standing under those monsters on USS Milius (DDG-69) while she was in dry dock. They’re HUGE.

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