Comments on: .50 BMG Flechette rifle http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:12:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jason http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-65908 Jason Tue, 28 Jun 2011 06:57:53 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-65908 Actually, while DU can be handled safely, as the radiation is minimal, (making it excellent shielding) breathing in DU dust (produced from the round's incendiary reaction as it impacts steel armor) is very dangerous. When these particles come in direct contact with lung tissue, the prolonged exposure to alpha radiation will almost certainly cause cancer over time. Unless you never plan to advance on the hardened target this round is designed for, its simply too dangerous to be used as anything except as a weapon of last resort. Even in these cases, targets should be given as wide a berth as possible, and soldiers should never camp in proximity to destroyed targets. By proximity, read as several miles. Actually, while DU can be handled safely, as the radiation is minimal, (making it excellent shielding) breathing in DU dust (produced from the round’s incendiary reaction as it impacts steel armor) is very dangerous. When these particles come in direct contact with lung tissue, the prolonged exposure to alpha radiation will almost certainly cause cancer over time. Unless you never plan to advance on the hardened target this round is designed for, its simply too dangerous to be used as anything except as a weapon of last resort. Even in these cases, targets should be given as wide a berth as possible, and soldiers should never camp in proximity to destroyed targets. By proximity, read as several miles.

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]]> By: Nater http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-64653 Nater Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:14:27 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-64653 The health concerns from depleted uranium are real, they're just not radiation related. DU is a heavy metal. Heavy metals are very poisonous. The health concerns from depleted uranium are real, they’re just not radiation related. DU is a heavy metal. Heavy metals are very poisonous.

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]]> By: Don Schroeder http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-61155 Don Schroeder Sun, 24 Apr 2011 01:03:20 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-61155 In 1971 I flew over a site s.w. of Quan Tre with my indesepensible fighter group in an old DC-3 with three HIVAPs trained on carpeting the ground with fletchets from about 1K feet. ''We discharged about 40.000 round burst in less than 30 seconds, while almost flying sideways due to the cross winds that came up at that time. We were told that the ground forces came through this hamlet soon after we straffed it. Needless to say, they didn't find anybody alive, pets and livestock included. Then the 101 Airborne dropped several hundred poinds of napalm and high density 500 poiund bombs and the hamlet became a virtual moon surface with not a stick of vegetation. In 1971 I flew over a site s.w. of Quan Tre with my indesepensible fighter group in an old DC-3 with three HIVAPs trained on carpeting the ground with fletchets from about 1K feet. ”We discharged about 40.000 round burst in less than 30 seconds, while almost flying sideways due to the cross winds that came up at that time. We were told that the ground forces came through this hamlet soon after we straffed it. Needless to say, they didn’t find anybody alive, pets and livestock included. Then the 101 Airborne dropped several hundred poinds of napalm and high density 500 poiund bombs and the hamlet became a virtual moon surface with not a stick of vegetation.

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]]> By: Parabellum http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-42886 Parabellum Thu, 16 Sep 2010 01:36:39 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-42886 If you could send me some photos of the spent sabots it would be greatly appreciated, I am currently attempting to modify a single flechette to fire from a 12-gauge and need some insight towards a discarding sabot. lhprototech@yahoo.com If you could send me some photos of the spent sabots it would be greatly appreciated, I am currently attempting to modify a single flechette to fire from a 12-gauge and need some insight towards a discarding sabot.

lhprototech@yahoo.com

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]]> By: dingebretsen http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-41199 dingebretsen Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:14:43 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-41199 I worked on a ARPA program in 1971 that used this round. It was fired from an unmanned QH-50 helicopter (Nellis range 63). I had one of the TRW Boys rifles in my office at Wright-Patterson AFB, until my branch chief made me get rid of it. It was donated to the US Army armament museum at Ft. Aberdeen, MD. I don't know if it is currently on display there. I still have several DU flechettes, and a few spent plastic sabots (they only traveled about 20 ft from the muzzle, and were usually recovered in good condition). If this link is still active, I would be happy to answer any questions that anyone has. I worked on a ARPA program in 1971 that used this round. It was fired from an unmanned QH-50 helicopter (Nellis range 63). I had one of the TRW Boys rifles in my office at Wright-Patterson AFB, until my branch chief made me get rid of it. It was donated to the US Army armament museum at Ft. Aberdeen, MD. I don’t know if it is currently on display there.

I still have several DU flechettes, and a few spent plastic sabots (they only traveled about 20 ft from the muzzle, and were usually recovered in good condition).

If this link is still active, I would be happy to answer any questions that anyone has.

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]]> By: Lcpl. Budd http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-7167 Lcpl. Budd Sat, 07 Mar 2009 11:07:41 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-7167 They've got one of these at MCRD (Marine Corps Recruit Depot) San Diego in the museum. It's .55 caliber, was used in WWII (been almost 1.5 years since I visited the museum, but I'm fairly sure it was WWII) by the British, and was also known as "The Boy's Gun." No DU (obviously). If memory serves, it was used up to 550 meters in an anti-tank. Don't remember if the total number produced was specified by the museum, but 12 doesn't sound unreasonable, as the weapon was not widely used. They’ve got one of these at MCRD (Marine Corps Recruit Depot) San Diego in the museum. It’s .55 caliber, was used in WWII (been almost 1.5 years since I visited the museum, but I’m fairly sure it was WWII) by the British, and was also known as “The Boy’s Gun.”

No DU (obviously). If memory serves, it was used up to 550 meters in an anti-tank.
Don’t remember if the total number produced was specified by the museum, but 12 doesn’t sound unreasonable, as the weapon was not widely used.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6824 Steve Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:33:49 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6824 Well guys, I stand corrected on the topic of DE and its toxicity Well guys, I stand corrected on the topic of DE and its toxicity

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]]> By: Vote For David http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6815 Vote For David Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:01:16 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6815 DE is pretty innocuous when it's still riding in your tank's (or rifle's?) magazine. The nasty bit comes after it has turned the inside of an enemy APC to burned crispies . . . then you have slightly radioactive, toxic dust left from the round you shot them with. It's one more thing to worry about (a little) when you are checking a burned out hulk for anything (or anyone) useful in the field DE is pretty innocuous when it’s still riding in your tank’s (or rifle’s?) magazine. The nasty bit comes after it has turned the inside of an enemy APC to burned crispies . . . then you have slightly radioactive, toxic dust left from the round you shot them with. It’s one more thing to worry about (a little) when you are checking a burned out hulk for anything (or anyone) useful in the field

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]]> By: Nomen Nescio http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6793 Nomen Nescio Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:01:42 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6793 i'm an idiot who shouldn't be posting so late at night. in addition to forgetting to close that link (i'd meant it to cover only two words...), i went and talked about <i>fission</i> products when i meant to talk about <i>decay</i> products. uranium (even depleted uranium) will spontaneously fission, too, but absent a nuclear reactor that's such a rare event as to not much matter. i’m an idiot who shouldn’t be posting so late at night. in addition to forgetting to close that link (i’d meant it to cover only two words…), i went and talked about fission products when i meant to talk about decay products. uranium (even depleted uranium) will spontaneously fission, too, but absent a nuclear reactor that’s such a rare event as to not much matter.

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]]> By: Nomen Nescio http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6790 Nomen Nescio Wed, 25 Feb 2009 03:49:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6790 <i>Carrying DE rounds around would likely be a health hazard to the soldier using them.</i> not unless you suck on them like lollipops. or throw one in the campfire and inhale the smoke. depleted uranium metal really isn't all that radioactive --- the half-life is in the billions of years. the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_series#Radium_series_.28aka_Uranium_series.29" rel="nofollow">fission products</i> are also radioactive, but not much more dangerous than uranium itself for several steps of decay; things don't get iffy until you hit radon, which is a gas, and so would be trapped in the metal matrix i'd wager. in fact, depleted uranium has been used as radiation <i>shielding</i> to protect against more vigorous radiators. works about as well as lead at that. has similar backdraws as lead too --- they're both toxic heavy metals, and you don't want to ingest either one. Carrying DE rounds around would likely be a health hazard to the soldier using them.

not unless you suck on them like lollipops. or throw one in the campfire and inhale the smoke.

depleted uranium metal really isn’t all that radioactive — the half-life is in the billions of years. the fission products are also radioactive, but not much more dangerous than uranium itself for several steps of decay; things don’t get iffy until you hit radon, which is a gas, and so would be trapped in the metal matrix i’d wager.

in fact, depleted uranium has been used as radiation shielding to protect against more vigorous radiators. works about as well as lead at that. has similar backdraws as lead too — they’re both toxic heavy metals, and you don’t want to ingest either one.

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]]> By: EmptorMaven http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6778 EmptorMaven Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:43:51 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6778 I don't know about this example, but rifled sabots are typically a soft material that will not wear on the gun's bore. Besides, this gun must be a smoothbore since the flechette is not designed to spin. (Which would also explain why the flechette load wouldn't work in a regular .50BMG rifle.) Regarding the depleted uranium: It's no more hazardous to touch than lead. What little radiation it does emit is of a very low energy. A marble floor or granite countertop could pose a greater radiological hazard. Granted, like most other heavy metals it is toxic. You don't want to breath it or swallow it. Also, at high temperatures (like those created when a supersonic projectile hits a hard target) DU becomes "pyrophoric," which means it will burn, releasing even more energy at the target. I don’t know about this example, but rifled sabots are typically a soft material that will not wear on the gun’s bore. Besides, this gun must be a smoothbore since the flechette is not designed to spin. (Which would also explain why the flechette load wouldn’t work in a regular .50BMG rifle.)

Regarding the depleted uranium: It’s no more hazardous to touch than lead. What little radiation it does emit is of a very low energy. A marble floor or granite countertop could pose a greater radiological hazard. Granted, like most other heavy metals it is toxic. You don’t want to breath it or swallow it. Also, at high temperatures (like those created when a supersonic projectile hits a hard target) DU becomes “pyrophoric,” which means it will burn, releasing even more energy at the target.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6777 Steve Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:14:17 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6777 I agree with jdun1911 I agree with jdun1911

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]]> By: jdun1911 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6776 jdun1911 Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:00:41 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6776 It will destroy any rifling in a matter of a few shots at the speed that the Flechette leaves the bore. The fins is more then enough to stabilize the Flechette. The M829A1 is able to gets hit at over one mile. It will destroy any rifling in a matter of a few shots at the speed that the Flechette leaves the bore.

The fins is more then enough to stabilize the Flechette. The M829A1 is able to gets hit at over one mile.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6773 Steve Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:17:01 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6773 Tony, lol. Seriously through: would you be happy to carry about radioactive decaying uranium in a pouch on your body? One thing in an aircraft, tank or ship (?) magazine, but another thing on the body. That is asking for trouble. Also the chemical produced when DE corrodes can spontaneously combust at room temperature! Tony, lol. Seriously through: would you be happy to carry about radioactive decaying uranium in a pouch on your body? One thing in an aircraft, tank or ship (?) magazine, but another thing on the body. That is asking for trouble.

Also the chemical produced when DE corrodes can spontaneously combust at room temperature!

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]]> By: Woody http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6770 Woody Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:17:33 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6770 My friend and I were thinking the same thing Phil, twisted stabilizer fins would give the projectile better accuracy but it would slow it down. I don't know whether it would slow it down to the point where range would be hindered but I bet it would (see murphy's law: no good deed goes unpunished). Imagine arching the round, if the moa were tighter then you could reach further but again I have no idea what the specs would be. I'm sure they thought about twisting the fins but maybe you can't effect a spin at speeds approaching mach4, maybe it would time travel, maybe they didn't actually think of it, who knows? We never will and that makes me sad. My friend and I were thinking the same thing Phil, twisted stabilizer fins would give the projectile better accuracy but it would slow it down. I don’t know whether it would slow it down to the point where range would be hindered but I bet it would (see murphy’s law: no good deed goes unpunished). Imagine arching the round, if the moa were tighter then you could reach further but again I have no idea what the specs would be. I’m sure they thought about twisting the fins but maybe you can’t effect a spin at speeds approaching mach4, maybe it would time travel, maybe they didn’t actually think of it, who knows? We never will and that makes me sad.

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6766 Daniel E. Watters Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:58:46 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6766 As for the fins, a former TRW engineer John R. Sellars has written that they did experiment with a slight fin angle. The original fin angle was 1 degree. This was found to add too much drag, adversely effecting the range of the fléchette. Sellars thought that they might be spinning so fast that they were bending the shaft in flight. Later efforts used a 0.5 degree cant. According to Sellars, 20,000 of the .50 BMG DU fléchette round were made. FWIW: The prototype HIVAP rounds used steel fléchette. This was probably due to the weapon being a proof of concept model. DU fléchette are a bit much for function testing. You hardly want to contaminate the factory test range, and at ~30,000 rpm, it would get pretty expensive in short order. Around the same time, AAI worked on DU fléchette in 7.62mm NATO. The latter had the unfortunate designation DUDS: Depleted Uranium Discarding Sabot. I really need to add these to my article on SPIW and fléchette over at The Gun Zone. http://www.thegunzone.com/spiw.html As for the fins, a former TRW engineer John R. Sellars has written that they did experiment with a slight fin angle. The original fin angle was 1 degree. This was found to add too much drag, adversely effecting the range of the fléchette. Sellars thought that they might be spinning so fast that they were bending the shaft in flight. Later efforts used a 0.5 degree cant. According to Sellars, 20,000 of the .50 BMG DU fléchette round were made.

FWIW: The prototype HIVAP rounds used steel fléchette. This was probably due to the weapon being a proof of concept model. DU fléchette are a bit much for function testing. You hardly want to contaminate the factory test range, and at ~30,000 rpm, it would get pretty expensive in short order.

Around the same time, AAI worked on DU fléchette in 7.62mm NATO. The latter had the unfortunate designation DUDS: Depleted Uranium Discarding Sabot.

I really need to add these to my article on SPIW and fléchette over at The Gun Zone.

http://www.thegunzone.com/spiw.html

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]]> By: Tony http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6764 Tony Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:51:09 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6764 <i>"...and health concerns of depleted uranium."</i> Oh please, not you too? :( The amount of hysteria these days over just about everything is quite depressing. I had higher hopes for such an intelligent blog as this. “…and health concerns of depleted uranium.”

Oh please, not you too? :( The amount of hysteria these days over just about everything is quite depressing. I had higher hopes for such an intelligent blog as this.

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]]> By: Phil http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/24/50-bmg-flechette-rifle/comment-page-1/#comment-6749 Phil Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:30:03 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5319#comment-6749 Is it just me, or should there be some twist on the dart stabilizers? Seems like that would give it more range and accuracy. Is it just me, or should there be some twist on the dart stabilizers? Seems like that would give it more range and accuracy.

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