Comments on: Weight of combat gear taking its toll on troops http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:19:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: civilian http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-59242 civilian Fri, 01 Apr 2011 00:39:28 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-59242 thank you all thank you all

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]]> By: ROTHCO http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-50162 ROTHCO Wed, 15 Dec 2010 04:56:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-50162 Combat loads typically has more than just 35 pounds of armor including weapons, communications gear, ammunition and other important fighting gears. We need to push forward with plans of cutting this weight and researching for more lighter ammunition, a better pack and gear that could improve agility and combat preparedness. Combat loads typically has more than just 35 pounds of armor including weapons, communications gear, ammunition and other important fighting gears. We need to push forward with plans of cutting this weight and researching for more lighter ammunition, a better pack and gear that could improve agility and combat preparedness.

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]]> By: Nanban Jim http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-45825 Nanban Jim Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:04:54 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-45825 Not all joints are created equal. Adding weight to such a degree will express these differences, as the injury reports are showing. The military is always ready to win the last war? Well, hopefully this one will result in logistical changes to how we get supplies to troops and what those are made of (ie, lighter weight materials). Not all joints are created equal. Adding weight to such a degree will express these differences, as the injury reports are showing. The military is always ready to win the last war? Well, hopefully this one will result in logistical changes to how we get supplies to troops and what those are made of (ie, lighter weight materials).

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]]> By: Ken http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-20489 Ken Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:31:42 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-20489 @Vote For David Walking tall is great when you're on a date. But not when you're trekking through mountain ranges loaded with Afghan snipers and .50 cal rifles. Just sayin. @Vote For David

Walking tall is great when you’re on a date.
But not when you’re trekking through mountain ranges loaded with Afghan snipers and .50 cal rifles.
Just sayin.

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]]> By: Ken http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-20488 Ken Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:26:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-20488 Keep in mind also, that 100lb loadout might as well be 200lb when at altitudes that average 6000 feet above sealevel. Afghanistan ranges between 4k and 20k above. At 6k, your oxygen intake can be reduced by 25% which adds greatly to muscle fatigue. Keep in mind also, that 100lb loadout might as well be 200lb when at altitudes that average 6000 feet above sealevel. Afghanistan ranges between 4k and 20k above. At 6k, your oxygen intake can be reduced by 25% which adds greatly to muscle fatigue.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-19756 Steve Sat, 28 Nov 2009 19:13:18 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-19756 Frank, I have a lot of respect for you! Frank, I have a lot of respect for you!

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]]> By: Frank http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-19751 Frank Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:55:47 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-19751 I see above that jdun1911 stated that average load for a compat troop in Vietnam was 40 lbs. I was in the 9th Infantry in the Mekong Delta, as an infantry soldeier, and I personally carried close to 80 lbs. most times. We worked hard to keep our loads low in weight, but necessity most times made us carry well over 40 lbs. At the least, my load consisted of an M-16, 24 mags, 2 canteens, radio, extra battery, long antenna for radio, machete, 5 to 6 smoke grenades, suspenders, hunting knife, flak vest, helmet, some food, poncho, liner, D-link (2), rope, flashlite, and any personal items you might want to carry. I see above that jdun1911 stated that average load for a compat troop in Vietnam was 40 lbs. I was in the 9th Infantry in the Mekong Delta, as an infantry soldeier, and I personally carried close to 80 lbs. most times. We worked hard to keep our loads low in weight, but necessity most times made us carry well over 40 lbs. At the least, my load consisted of an M-16, 24 mags, 2 canteens, radio, extra battery, long antenna for radio, machete, 5 to 6 smoke grenades, suspenders, hunting knife, flak vest, helmet, some food, poncho, liner, D-link (2), rope, flashlite, and any personal items you might want to carry.

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]]> By: turnandburn http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-11487 turnandburn Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:50:54 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-11487 Weight will depend alot on the unit SOPs. By our second month there, we had gotten rid of the IOTV and started wearing plate carriers, our helmets were replaced by ball caps and we never carried more than we needed. It still sucked to be the gun team, but those mountains arent bad in danner hiking boots and a plate hanger. Weight will depend alot on the unit SOPs. By our second month there, we had gotten rid of the IOTV and started wearing plate carriers, our helmets were replaced by ball caps and we never carried more than we needed. It still sucked to be the gun team, but those mountains arent bad in danner hiking boots and a plate hanger.

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]]> By: William http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-8377 William Sun, 05 Apr 2009 10:32:06 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-8377 I agree with many of the posters- my wish, as a 6 year Infantryman and Fister (Forward Observer) for the last 2 years is to go to plate carriers. The ballistic lining that heavies up the IBA/IOTV isnt really needed, imo. The plates and side plates Ill carry... The new IOTV is awesome- it includes the side plates and feels like it weighs less than the IBA, but its about the same weight... I'd love to go to plate carriers to shed a couple of pounds though- as an FO I carry two radios, batteries for each, bullets, food, water, minimal personal gear (socks, etc.), laser range finder and batteries, bino's- M22's and M24's, and a couple of 60mm mortar rounds. My RTO's pack mimics mine for the most part, minus the Laser range finder, but he adds a few batteries. Btw, Im in Afghanistan now. I agree with many of the posters- my wish, as a 6 year Infantryman and Fister (Forward Observer) for the last 2 years is to go to plate carriers. The ballistic lining that heavies up the IBA/IOTV isnt really needed, imo. The plates and side plates Ill carry… The new IOTV is awesome- it includes the side plates and feels like it weighs less than the IBA, but its about the same weight… I’d love to go to plate carriers to shed a couple of pounds though- as an FO I carry two radios, batteries for each, bullets, food, water, minimal personal gear (socks, etc.), laser range finder and batteries, bino’s- M22′s and M24′s, and a couple of 60mm mortar rounds. My RTO’s pack mimics mine for the most part, minus the Laser range finder, but he adds a few batteries.

Btw, Im in Afghanistan now.

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]]> By: Clayton http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6822 Clayton Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:18:45 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6822 The armor is heavy (20 lbs with plates), but the main thing is the ammo, radio batts & water. When you get in a firefight one SAW can go through 1000 rds easily. So you carry lots of extra. Sure 5.56 is lighter, but it adds up. Add in 60mm mortar rounds, AT4s and that is where you get 130lbs. I was on an M240 team and my ruck was 110lbs, and this was in training. Iraq we averaged about 85lbs each - with the bare essentials. But the weight was mainly ammo. Vote for David - get real man - posture has little to do with the injuries you get with humping a 110 lb ruck. A bigger factor is that guys get nagging injuries and keep going so as not to let the team down. A small problem turns into a crippling injury down the road. The armor is heavy (20 lbs with plates), but the main thing is the ammo, radio batts & water. When you get in a firefight one SAW can go through 1000 rds easily. So you carry lots of extra. Sure 5.56 is lighter, but it adds up. Add in 60mm mortar rounds, AT4s and that is where you get 130lbs.

I was on an M240 team and my ruck was 110lbs, and this was in training. Iraq we averaged about 85lbs each – with the bare essentials. But the weight was mainly ammo.

Vote for David – get real man – posture has little to do with the injuries you get with humping a 110 lb ruck. A bigger factor is that guys get nagging injuries and keep going so as not to let the team down. A small problem turns into a crippling injury down the road.

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]]> By: Puke http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6674 Puke Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:33:38 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6674 When I was a Chinook crew chief in Afghanistan in '02 almost every time a soldier had to step up the 1 foot onto the ramp to get into the helicopter he'd have a hell of a time. Especially the mortar guys. It's ridiculous the amount of gear that the grunts have to carry. In Iraq we had to wear our entire IBA just to stand in a guard tower. After 4 hours into an 8 hour torture shift my shoulders and neck would be throbbing with pain from carrying that crap. I'm so glad to be a civilian now. :P When I was a Chinook crew chief in Afghanistan in ’02 almost every time a soldier had to step up the 1 foot onto the ramp to get into the helicopter he’d have a hell of a time. Especially the mortar guys.
It’s ridiculous the amount of gear that the grunts have to carry.

In Iraq we had to wear our entire IBA just to stand in a guard tower. After 4 hours into an 8 hour torture shift my shoulders and neck would be throbbing with pain from carrying that crap.

I’m so glad to be a civilian now. :P

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]]> By: Concerned_Soldier http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6651 Concerned_Soldier Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:58:59 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6651 Huah Sean, But It comes down to a force protection issue. I would rather soldiers carry body army and make it home, then take a round and have to write their wives or parents. Been there done that, worst job in the Army. We carried every piece of body armor we had in Baghdad, but there is a significant difference in the terrain of Iraq and Afghanistan. Now with that said, there are ways to lighten the load, ODA teams wear different body armor that offers comparable protection with less weight. They also patrol with out their Kevlar helmet. Good luck gettting a line commander to okay that though.. Units could also plan missions differently, resupply by air, link-up operations to conduct LOGPACs just to name a few. The list goes on and on, the bottom line is, BODY ARMOR SAVES LIVES, its heavy, hot, and it sucks to wear it everywhere, but I wouldn't patrol without it and I wouldn't let my soldiers either. There are always two sides to every story. Just my two cents. V/R C_S Huah Sean,
But It comes down to a force protection issue. I would rather soldiers carry body army and make it home, then take a round and have to write their wives or parents. Been there done that, worst job in the Army.

We carried every piece of body armor we had in Baghdad, but there is a significant difference in the terrain of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now with that said, there are ways to lighten the load, ODA teams wear different body armor that offers comparable protection with less weight. They also patrol with out their Kevlar helmet. Good luck gettting a line commander to okay that though..

Units could also plan missions differently, resupply by air, link-up operations to conduct LOGPACs just to name a few.

The list goes on and on, the bottom line is, BODY ARMOR SAVES LIVES, its heavy, hot, and it sucks to wear it everywhere, but I wouldn’t patrol without it and I wouldn’t let my soldiers either.

There are always two sides to every story. Just my two cents.

V/R

C_S

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]]> By: tarkan http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6596 tarkan Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:08:07 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6596 http://www.tsk.mil.tr/1_TSK_HAKKINDA/1_8_Video_Goruntuleri/video8.htm http://haber.mynet.com/detail_news/?type=Actuel&id=X1197288382468&date=10Aralik2007 http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/436996.asp http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7296/eirdirkulenh9.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivouac http://www.msrgear.com/stoves/xgkex.asp www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5iPKJAkdcE Turkish army conducts mt ops for 2 decades and lots of lessons are learned many is waiting to be learned also.Truth is when a real mountaineer comes to military service you have a lot to learn from him;walking sticks(collapsible)oil cookers(msr xgk-whisperlite-dragon fly)bivouac,internal frame backpacks,correct usage of sleeping bags,correct usage of polar and goretex and their maintanance,tents,keeping your equipment dry,cooking up,melt the snow,fight hypothermia,test avalanche.Smugglers,mt villagers worldwide use castrated mules who are huge to haul large loads and animals have incredible capabilities like memorizing the terrain and sensing land mines.Our last offensive into northern iraq our soldiers carried huge backpacks many kgs belonged to just camping equipment,canned food etc(which proved useless).Latest youtube entry is from a retired commander who is a real patton style commander with incredible mobility tactics in mt areas,and he proved very successful results,politicians retired him prematurely to prevent a crossborder iran intervention who were supporting pkk at that time.Turkish textile industry supplies any kind of goretex,impatex,symapex,to any armies worldwide,while our infantry carry %100 nylon outerwear into ops and sweat into hypothermia or gtx outerwear maintained with normal detergents and lose their evaporation capabilities,useless in the end.At least microfiber with wool inside could change a lot.Last words;logistics,right training,mobility and learning from even villagers,mteers,and praying for preventing good commanders to serve longer who are like real father to his men;they are the hardest to be found. http://www.tsk.mil.tr/1_TSK_HAKKINDA/1_8_Video_Goruntuleri/video8.htm
http://haber.mynet.com/detail_news/?type=Actuel&id=X1197288382468&date=10Aralik2007
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/436996.asp
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7296/eirdirkulenh9.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivouac
http://www.msrgear.com/stoves/xgkex.asp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5iPKJAkdcE
Turkish army conducts mt ops for 2 decades and lots of lessons are learned many is waiting to be learned also.Truth is when a real mountaineer comes to military service you have a lot to learn from him;walking sticks(collapsible)oil cookers(msr xgk-whisperlite-dragon fly)bivouac,internal frame backpacks,correct usage of sleeping bags,correct usage of polar and goretex and their maintanance,tents,keeping your equipment dry,cooking up,melt the snow,fight hypothermia,test avalanche.Smugglers,mt villagers worldwide use castrated mules who are huge to haul large loads and animals have incredible capabilities like memorizing the terrain and sensing land mines.Our last offensive into northern iraq our soldiers carried huge backpacks many kgs belonged to just camping equipment,canned food etc(which proved useless).Latest youtube entry is from a retired commander who is a real patton style commander with incredible mobility tactics in mt areas,and he proved very successful results,politicians retired him prematurely to prevent a crossborder iran intervention who were supporting pkk at that time.Turkish textile industry supplies any kind of goretex,impatex,symapex,to any armies worldwide,while our infantry carry %100 nylon outerwear into ops and sweat into hypothermia or gtx outerwear maintained with normal detergents and lose their evaporation capabilities,useless in the end.At least microfiber with wool inside could change a lot.Last words;logistics,right training,mobility and learning from even villagers,mteers,and praying for preventing good commanders to serve longer who are like real father to his men;they are the hardest to be found.

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]]> By: jdun1911 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6588 jdun1911 Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:04:41 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6588 I agree with you Sean, 100%. I just wanted to point out that even with equipments that doesn't weight much will effect you in the long run. I agree with you Sean, 100%.

I just wanted to point out that even with equipments that doesn’t weight much will effect you in the long run.

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]]> By: Sean Nack http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6577 Sean Nack Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:03:46 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6577 it's the armor that's the thing. IBA with AP plates weighs about 40 lbs by itself. plus about 10 for helmet, 20-30 for MOLLE vest and rounds, and then you can start thinking about weaponry. and that's not even counting the water, food, and extra rounds you carry in an assault pack, probably another 15-20 lbs. as a grenadier i carried 20-ish lbs worth of 203 rounds at roughly .5 lbs each. and the poor gun team: the AG has a 25 pound tripod and 10 lbs worth of spare barrels, the gunner's M240B weighs 25lbs, and the ammo bearer carries a couple of cans of ammo at probably 15 lbs each (estimates all). i was 10th mtn, and it's always kinda funny that people have this perception of us as "alpine troops." we're totally not, at least not right now; the most training i had with skis was familiarization on our battalion's "mandatory fun day", and we never did anything with ropes or climbing, never not once. too busy with the other stuff. we do have a higher degree of familiarity with being ridiculously cold, being in upstate new york, but that's it. we used donkeys to cart stuff up to op's, but that's it. there's no getting them to hurry anywhere, and they are therefore somewhat useless during a mission, even a foot patrol. the only way to lighten loads for infantrymen is to drop the armor, but there's no political or institutional will to do that. it’s the armor that’s the thing. IBA with AP plates weighs about 40 lbs by itself. plus about 10 for helmet, 20-30 for MOLLE vest and rounds, and then you can start thinking about weaponry. and that’s not even counting the water, food, and extra rounds you carry in an assault pack, probably another 15-20 lbs. as a grenadier i carried 20-ish lbs worth of 203 rounds at roughly .5 lbs each. and the poor gun team: the AG has a 25 pound tripod and 10 lbs worth of spare barrels, the gunner’s M240B weighs 25lbs, and the ammo bearer carries a couple of cans of ammo at probably 15 lbs each (estimates all).

i was 10th mtn, and it’s always kinda funny that people have this perception of us as “alpine troops.” we’re totally not, at least not right now; the most training i had with skis was familiarization on our battalion’s “mandatory fun day”, and we never did anything with ropes or climbing, never not once. too busy with the other stuff. we do have a higher degree of familiarity with being ridiculously cold, being in upstate new york, but that’s it.

we used donkeys to cart stuff up to op’s, but that’s it. there’s no getting them to hurry anywhere, and they are therefore somewhat useless during a mission, even a foot patrol. the only way to lighten loads for infantrymen is to drop the armor, but there’s no political or institutional will to do that.

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]]> By: jdun1911 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6576 jdun1911 Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:03:38 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6576 The current weight that US infantry have to carry is ridiculous. US GI in WWII IIRC carried less then 30lbs. In Vietnam less then 40lbs. In Afghanistan/Iraq in some cases over 100lbs. That's why I advocate people not to put junk on AR15/rifles and only carry what they have too. More ounces = more pain. Weight kills. The current weight that US infantry have to carry is ridiculous. US GI in WWII IIRC carried less then 30lbs. In Vietnam less then 40lbs. In Afghanistan/Iraq in some cases over 100lbs.

That’s why I advocate people not to put junk on AR15/rifles and only carry what they have too. More ounces = more pain. Weight kills.

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]]> By: Herbaloaf http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6569 Herbaloaf Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:19:38 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6569 You should only carry 1/3 of your body weight in the field. You should only carry 1/3 of your body weight in the field.

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]]> By: Sean Nack http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6568 Sean Nack Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:48:26 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6568 i remember our co got these side plates delivered to the FOB that he was supposed to issue out, and he pretty much just said "no." he had our supply sergeant lock them up in a conex and that was that. in afghanistan, we're not really combat effective because we can't chase after these dudes carrying that much weight. as an infantryman, i'll tell you right now that the majority of us would prefer to drop the armor and take the chance of taking one in the chest in order to have an actual shot at getting these dudes. but because the political leadership at the time was so risk-averse, just interested in maintaining the status quo, we couldn't. hopefully that'll change. i remember our co got these side plates delivered to the FOB that he was supposed to issue out, and he pretty much just said “no.” he had our supply sergeant lock them up in a conex and that was that.

in afghanistan, we’re not really combat effective because we can’t chase after these dudes carrying that much weight. as an infantryman, i’ll tell you right now that the majority of us would prefer to drop the armor and take the chance of taking one in the chest in order to have an actual shot at getting these dudes. but because the political leadership at the time was so risk-averse, just interested in maintaining the status quo, we couldn’t. hopefully that’ll change.

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]]> By: Florian http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6564 Florian Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:20:57 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6564 Sounds like, UC Berkley needs to hurry and and finish their exo skeleton :) http://bleex.me.berkeley.edu/bleex.htm Sounds like, UC Berkley needs to hurry and and finish their exo skeleton :)

http://bleex.me.berkeley.edu/bleex.htm

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]]> By: Vote For David http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/19/weight-of-combat-gear-taking-its-toll-on-troops/comment-page-1/#comment-6562 Vote For David Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:50:33 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=5198#comment-6562 I hate to mention it because it's sure to bring the hate, but. . . Nobody tells little boys to "stand up straight, chest out, shoulders back, chin up" anymore. Basic training only goes so far. Proper posture goes a long way toward reducing injuries from carrying too much. Those with musculoskeletal dysfunction will be well advised to read (and heed) Pain Free by Pete Egoscue before going on LLD because they are gimped up, and <i>definitely</i> before undergoing surgery of any kind. Of course, if the Big Dog project would get sped up a little bit, this discussion would be irrelevant. http://www.bostondynamics.com/content/sec.php?section=BigDog I hate to mention it because it’s sure to bring the hate, but. . .

Nobody tells little boys to “stand up straight, chest out, shoulders back, chin up” anymore. Basic training only goes so far. Proper posture goes a long way toward reducing injuries from carrying too much. Those with musculoskeletal dysfunction will be well advised to read (and heed) Pain Free by Pete Egoscue before going on LLD because they are gimped up, and definitely before undergoing surgery of any kind.

Of course, if the Big Dog project would get sped up a little bit, this discussion would be irrelevant.
http://www.bostondynamics.com/content/sec.php?section=BigDog

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