AT-14: The .410 AR-15 Shotgun
Yes, you did you the title correctly. American Tactical Imports are bringing the Safir Arms T-14 stateside and calling it the AT-14.
T-14 Classic
Now you are probably asking yourself why would someone want such a gun? When I first learnt about the T-14 a few months ago I asked the same question. The T-14 is very popular in Europe. Many countries, including Turkey where the T-14 is manufactured, either ban semi-automatic rifles or make it hard to own one. This gun is the closest thing the average citizen can get to owning an AR-15.
So why is ATI bringing them to the USA where AR-15s are plentiful? I wondered about this myself. First of all they could be a popular hunting arm for AR-15 enthusiast for use in shotgun only hunting areas (I don’t hunt with a shotgun, so correct me if I am wrong). Ed Friedman made a good point that with the new self defense .410 ammunition from Federal this gun could make a good self defense weapon when over penetration is a concern. A .410 slug should give similar performance to a .357 Magnum.
The ATI advertisement.
Guns.ru describe the gas system as follows:
The gas system utilizes annual (ring-type) short-stroke gas piston, located around the barrel
T-14 disassembly. One BIG spring
The gun can be seen in action in this youtube video:
ATI will be importing the Classic model and the Compact model. Both feature a A2 carry handle style upper receiver, fixed stock and 20″ barrel. The only different is the length of the handguard.
AT-14 Classic
AT-14 Compact
According to Ed a 5 round and 15 round magazine will be available. I have read that AR-15 magazines can be converted to hold 10 .410 rounds. Ed hopes to review the shotgun in an upcoming issue of Guns and Hunting.
UPDATE: The MSRP is $979 and dealer price is $800. They should be available shortly (thanks War Wolf and Todd for the info).
If somebody were to make rimless .410, this could be very cool. That way you could double stack the mag and easily have 25-30 rd mags. Come to think of it, why has no one ever made rimless shotgun shells (aside from pistol cal shotshells)?
For instance, if somebody made rimless 12GA, then Saiga 12’s would instantly become WAYYY more practicable.
If shotshells were rimless, they wouldn’t be able to maintain proper headspace. Remember, loaded shotshells are shorter than the chamber. The difference in chamber length allows the crimped hull to unfold.
At best, you could hope for a belted shotshell, instead of a rim. While there wouldn’t be much difference in width, at least then you would have fewer issues with rims interlocking.
I was never a huge fan of the AR (big M14 fan), though this thing is really cool. It’s a shame it’s a smooth bore. A sabot slug would be great in that thing. So would shooting trap.
-Don
At least here in NY, the .410 is not legal for large game hunting – DEC regs require a minimum of 20ga.
While it would be theoretically possible to hunt birds or small game with the .410, I don’t see the AR as being the ideal platform for that. Accurate shotgunning is about smooth swing and follow-through… I don’t find that with an AR.
Do we already have an early contender for waffenposselhaft 2009?
Interesting choice; going with the annular piston. A few other designs, like the VZ-52 and the Steyr ACR candidate also use a piston that surrounds the barrel like that.
Rimless shotgun shells are unfeasible because all shotgun shells are shorter than their stated length when unfired. This is because the end of the the shell has either a star crimp (for shot charges) or a roll crimp (for slugs) to contain the payload in the cartridge. For example, a 2.75in shell is more like 2.5in before firing. With no fixed length there is no way to headspace the shell without a rim.
Ok a definite buy.
I believe the shell headspaces on the rim. The chamber is long enough for the front of the shell to unfold, so I don’t think it could headspace there. So, take away the rim, and it won’t work. Not insurmountable, but there’s no shoulder to headspace on, and you need clearance at the mouth, headspacing there would be problematic.
Does anybody know how much these cost?
I called ATI and they said that the first batch is already in-country and is currently being engraved with their logo. They should be available to dealers within two weeks. MSRP is $979. Dealer price is rather attractive too.
War Wolf, thanks very much for finding that out. I have updated the blog post.
Annular, not annual.
Must be a translation problem out of Russian.
I can’t tell…is that a standard AR lower?
Wolfwood, I am not sure about that. I wondered myself.
If one were to make a rimless shotgun shell, what’s to keep you from headspacing on the brass, and treat the front like a big plastic bullet? Make the brass a tad larger to keep it out of conventional shotguns, and the rim on the conventional shell will keep the new gun from going into battery with the old ammo.
Years ago, I looked at my copy of Cartridges of the World, and other references, and decided that a sawn-off and somewhat blown-out 20mm case would make an excellent rimless 12-gauge case. Failing that, we still have the Saiga 12. There are drum magazines available for it. At the moment.
Justthisguy, the problem is cost
No one would buy them because the cost of the brass. One of the problems with using a stacked magazine (as opposed to tube) with plastic shot shells is that if they stay in there long enough the cases can deform. Brass cases fix this problem but are very expensive, which is why you never see brass 12 guage, although they are available. Brass 12 guage can be seen in that western staring Russel Crow playing the good-guy-bandit (I forget the name).
I’m not familiar with shotguns but if the 410 can fit into the magwell (or any cartridge), you can use a standard AR15 lower.
jdun1911, that depends on the upper design. It is an AR in spirit but I am not sure how much of an AR it is in practice. Standard AR magazine can be modified to take the .410 using a dremel tool so presumably they fit in the mag well.
It would be foolish of them to not use the standard AR15 lower if that is the case.
http://www.domuzavcisi.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2482
http://www.domuzavcisi.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=375
http://www.avcilarmekani.com/frmbaslik1104-baslangic30
All websites about Safir T14 and wild boar hunting;I experienced it at range a friend of mine has one.Use federal ammo instead of cheap imitations like zuber spreads,ital 410s are good federal superb,do not use ammos other than slug,so this is a wild boar rifle not for birds. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2344459//,like every semiauto even 0,5 gr more blackpowder makes a change,clean rifle at every 100 shots,if you are a shooter clean before storage,factory says every 200.Low recoil,comes with a beatiful pelican case,price in Turkey around 1000 USD has 4 different models.Factory is at Umraniye Istanbul;owners are ex special forces officers and NCOs who relied on M4s for their lives in their entire carriers,so the result was Safir,lovely to think all USA market M4 accessories suit them well,pointers,scopes,you name it.Wild boar shot claims differ alot,but 287 meter claim I saw on the web,happens like this I figure first shot before 100 mts,second when target tries running,second shot distances vary but do not take risks I say above are the results.Think of your shot buddy,dog and yourself.I hope laws wont change letting many people enjoys and owns this lovely rifle.I also ask myself why not M14 410 slug firing models for Safir,which will sell just fine.
Lately I saw taurus has a 410 firing revolver?410 s on the run?
I do like the concept, but 20″ is a bit long for me. If they made a NFA version at 14.5″ or less I think I might be all over this.
I saw one of these at the SHOT Show. It’s an interesting idea and really a pretty good one for dealing with snakes and varmints(big and small) in the woods. Of course I have a Saiga 20ga (and wish I had bought the .420 version back when they were <$200) so I may be a little prejudice.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11460565/Safir-T14
I think everybody should try Safir without prejudice,you will love many features of it plus you can put many accessories on it available on the market.Stoppping power can be seen from links above,best is you find all yourself.
tarkan, thanks for the link!
Could you use this in 3 gun?
thats cool.
Man, I really like this think. I’m not into the “fun gun” thing, but this would really be fun to play with. Not the best weapon to use for the defense side in my opinion …. only because I dont thing my agency would let the 410 thing fly. If only i had the money LOL for more toys
Will this thing fire slugs ?
Brian, yes, defiantly. I think it is primary designed for slugs.
I was thinking of Three gun as well… now to make it on the ar-10 platform in 12 guage!
I picked one up as I am a 410 enthusiast. After putting 1250 rounds through it without trouble, all I can say is wow. I have the Saiga line of shotguns but this is totally different, not better just different. The ease at acquiring clay pidgeons and ground targets is amazing. What a great hunting gun this is going to turn out to be and the cool factor is off the charts.
now I just need magazines that will hold some ammo
I would like to thank every one of you who has shown interest in Safir Arms T-14 shotguns and for your comments , be it positive or negative.
We are working very hard with the assistance of our friendly colleagues in ATI to bring more of our T-14 shotguns to the States. We are also growing our export base in Europe, Latin America and several other countries around the world. As a small company heavily relying on R&D
we are also working on grooved and rifled models to present to our customers in the near future.
We shall be very happy to hear your opinions and use them as part of our customer feed back.
Kamil Arıkut
Foreign Trade Director
Safir Arms Industries
Hey fellas … here is a place to get metallic brass. It can be reloaded. I have some metallic brass .410 brass from some Russian shells,but they have BOXER primers and are a pain to reload.These have the Berdan peimer pokeys that are eat to reload,,….Dave…..PS…I am having a hard time attachingbut they are at MIDWAYUSA firearms supplies site and are bags of 25 empty brass fully metallic shells in lots of 25. I am a .410 “BORE” nut too.
Umm, D.S. you have that bass-ackwards. Those Russian shotshells are Berdan primed. The Magtech brass from Midway is Boxer primed and, like all of the older US produced all brass shotshells, are designed to be used with PISTOL primers not rifle primers.
Boxer primers have a self contained anvil and the primer pocket in the case has a single flash hole. Just about every cartridge produced in the USA uses a Boxer primer as they make it extremely easy to deprime and reprime a cartridge case.
It’s Berdan primers that feature the anvil machined (stamped) into the primer pocket and multiple flash holes. Berdan primers are heavily favored in Europe where civilian reloading is nearly unheard of. While you can reload Berdan cases it is a very laborous procedure an the primers themselves are nearly impossible to find in America.
The irony of it all is that the Boxer primer so popular in the US was invented by an Englishman named Edward Boxer (of course) while the Berdan primer which is rarely encountered in US produced ammunition had been developed a few years earlier by Colonel Hiram Berdan, famous for his “Berdan’s Sharpshooters” of the War Between The States, who was an American.
So, how does this fine looking weapon compare with the Saiga 410? I have a Saiga and have found it to be very reliable, based on the AK47, basically the best thing Russia ever built, but I came across this gun and I like the look.
What length shells can it accept and how reliable is it? The Saiga fires 3” shells but there is a special magazine that allows for 2.5” rounds to be fired properly. I use the Winchester 3” 000 Bucks as well as the Silver Bear zinc powdered metal shell sabots.
Thanks.
Thank you for helping me out with the primer situation. I had just came home from the dentists office where I had two teeth pulled. I had broken one and had to have a little emergency surgery so my spelling was off by a long shot. The primer thing I honestly just had backasswards. I shoot a lot of the Russian GOLDEN BEAR ammo that comes in the two and three quarter inch length brass shell. It holds 5 pellets. Their web site is http://www.bearammo.com…In my hometown it comes in a little purple box with 5 shotshells for $4. Once in a while I have to fire the same shell twice in my single shot H&R .410 ,but it always fires the second whack with the hammer. I think the primers might be a little thick skinned,but I find this is an awesome round. A 15 shot mag could send 75 good sized pellets down range in no time. I know there are many arm chair warriors that will dis agree,but I would love to have a Safir loaded with a mag of Bear Ammo for a home defense weapon. I know of NO thief that would try and stand in the doorway and argue with this gun blasting away at him. If he did I doubt if he would be there long.
I want one…..As a matter of fact…..I’ll probably buy two. One for the house and one for the car. My younger brother will probably want two….Guarantee he’ll buy at least one. I also have 3-4 cousins…..I KNOW for a fact that will get one a piece…..Send a bunch when you get them…..It will probably pay you well if you put those young Turks working overtime for a while at the factory…..That will give them plenty of $$$$$$ for a summer holiday.It would be nice to have them over to America to see us enjoying their work on the range shooting the weapons…..just a thought…..
i didnt even know these were already being important until i saw one for sale at a local firearms dealer. not sure how much they wanted because the one they had was already sold so i didnt bother asking the price. i dont really know much about the .410 as i dont own any shotguns in that bore. but im thinking of purchasing one just because it looks nice. and the best part is, its legal up here in NY so long as it dont have the collapsible stock and the magazine capacity is not more then 10 (im not sure about 10 as it may be 5 for shotguns)
whoops i meant to say “imported” not “important”. i should have double read before hitting the submit button
I just bought an AT-14. Failure to feed has been a problem. The fired casings are trapped by the rising next round. Any suggestions?
Manzahn, what ammo are you using?
Griv
I have both the Saiga 410 and the Safir T14. The saiga will shoot anything while the Safir is a little picky, especially with shotshells.
Manzahn
Try a different brand of ammo. Also make sure the Safir is clean and well lubricated. While the AK platform will work under any condition the AR platform needs to be clean and well lubricated. If you continue to have problems after this contact ATI. They support there other products very well and I would expect the same with the Safir.
I bought one of these a couple of weeks back, the first one I saw/held. I have already posted my initial impressions and experiences on AR15.COM. I want to give it a much better workout with many more loads before making any pronouncements, but I like it so far. It seemed to feed the smooth-shell rounds just fine, but hung up every 2-3 rounds with teh ribbed ones. I will tell you that the sight of busting clays with an “AR” was almost worth the price of admission by itself!
Hardshell, do you have a link to the AR15 board, their site engine bites!
Direct link to my thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=434766&page=1
I will add that from fiddling around with it last night (as I described in the linked thread) it doesn’t appear to be completely interchangeable with standard AR lowers/uppers/magwells, at least not without some modifications.
Would be a great home defence platform, 410 ga. slugs , 10 rounds, detatchable mags…perfect.
Except .410 slugs are only 90 grains. Use a pistol caliber carbine instead.
.410 slugs are perform similar to .357 magnum (so I have read online).
I had the same question with regards to a Taurus Judge, which can shoot .410 or .45 Colt.
A .45 Colt load is a 255gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of 961fps, for a muzzle energy of 523 ft/lbs.
A .357magnum 158gr JSP muzzle V is 1240fps with 539 ft/lbs
A .410 slug weighing 90gr muzzle V is 1830fps 651ft/lbs (out of rifle barrel)
(all stats from wikipedia or winchester)
So, yes it does have power of a .357 Magnum.
or you could carry an M1 carbine in .30 carbine. 110gr bullet, 600fps, 880ft/lbs. 15 or 30 shot magazines.
or a Carbine Conversion Unit for a 1911
230gr bullet, 830fps, 352ft/lbs (out of a 5″ barrel so speed and energy would be higher) 7,8,10, or 15 round magazines.
or .44 magnum out of a Ruger 99/44 Deerfield carbine….
or an M4 .223 AR-15 with rifle rounds!
I question the use of a rifle (minimum length 26 inches, usually longer) for the tight confines of home defense. I’ve seen TV shows and read articles that talk about home defense with a rifle, so there are those that support it.
I bought one from Red’s Trading Post for $900
I purchased a 410 T-14 upper and was very excited about it because I hog hunt, and I thought this would be great in the brush, etc. I was told on the phone that it would shoot 3″ shells. I was terribly disappointed when it arrived to find that it will only use 2 3/4″ shells. I am going to keep it, but that does cut my firepower in half.
I am putting this information out for those who might have the same question. Nowhere on the website does it state what ammo the gun uses.
does aney one know if the t-14 is leagle in n.j ?
I purchased my T14 new on gunbroker.com for $ 499
Yes, complete not upper – got lucky. It is a std. AR lower, I have purchased a DPMS 223 upper and it works great – A little bit “off” with the rear pin, but a slight tap with hammer and all is well. The T14 only takes 2.5″ shells, but will shoot anything – I prefer 000 . Fun to shoot, has been totally reliable, glad I got a great deal. I checked with Safirarms and ATI and they say 15 round mags ( I think it was 15 ) should be available soon, if not now. Three weeks ago ATI said they were expecting them any day, then they had to quality check and get out to distributors.
saw the t-14 what about 45 long colt .have taurs 45-410?
b-man, the T-17 cannot use .45 Long Colt – using it may be VERY dangerous.
Dear Mr. Floyd,
Again thnx for your interest in our product.
For the time being, because of licencing and export regulation issues we can not produce rifled barrels.
So our barrels are being manufactured in PA by an American manufacturer and our T 15 rifled model also assembled there will be on sale very soon all around US by ATI as AT 15. Keep checking their web pages.
With best regards
Kamil Arikut
Foreign Trade Director
SafirArms Ltd.Co.
Rifled barrels all well and fine but what about higher capacity magazines?
Still can’t find any higher capacity magazines. I contacted Safir and they gave me ATI who gave me websites that are no good
If anyone knows when and where they will be available – please post ! Thanks
Will the Communistic-Democratic party of the U.S allow those in California?
looking for info (as mentioned above) for modifying an AR mag to hold/feed .410.
tried two mags and gave up. With the release of the 15round magazines I just went that way. A lot of time tig welding the feed lips in the correct position and fabricating a follower all to no avail.
Good luck if you choose to pursue it, just seemed more cost effective to buy the ones already out there with higher capacity.
The comments on the unreliability were widely available when I was interested in the AT-14, so I ended up going with the Saiga .410. I upgraded the compression and the trigger springs and it has NO problem firing 25 round magazine after magazine. The Silver Bear .410 Sabot was actually designed specifically for that gun. There is also a magazine available that allows the use of 2.5 inch shells.
The Saiga 12 gauge works great too and can handle different length shells in the same 12 round magazine. 2″, 2.5″, 2.75″ and 3″. That’s a lot of flexibility in what type of shell you need.
25 round saiga magazine for the S410? I have a few of the drums for my S12 and 10 rounders for the S410 but have not seen the S410 25 rounders. My S20 gives me fits with different types of ammo but is reliable with the brands it likes.
I have not had the issues with the AT 14 that some have had. It shoots very well even using the higher cap magazines. I still find the AT14 in need of some chokes so I can use it effectively for hunting birds.
I found the 15 round mags at Cope’s Distributing INC. They say they’re for the T-14 AR-15 Uppers they sell, but I assume they would be the same for the complete Safir T-14 gun.
Found them at Cope’s too – 15 round mags ! Ordered a few days ago and got it fed ex today ! $ 19.99 !
Hold off on buying them, just tried to load shells and they are made too short and shells jam up and don’t feed ! I doubt I just got a bad one, I think they are made wrong !!! I’m waiting to hear back from Cope’s.
Oops, that would be 15 round magazines NOT 25 rounds. Sorry!
anyone know what happened?
I ordered a 14 from a gunstore three months ago and they couldnt find one for me, something about Safir sold the design to another company? new factory? or something like that. confusing, all I know is the gun store hated to give my check back to me.
who is the new company,and when will the gun be available again?
I just bought an AT-14 upper and mated it to a DPMS lower with a Magpul 1LX50 adjustable stock. I have one question, and a comment that might help some future reader.
Question: I understand that this gun is ammo sensitive, ie it won’t shoot and cycle just any .410 2 1/2 inch shotshell. What will it shoot well?
A customer service rep. at ATI told me that I could use any roll-crimp (not star crimp) 2 1/2 inch shotshell and it should work fine. Well, not quite …
I bought a box of roll-crimped Federal Premium .410 2 1/2 inch buckshot (4 pellets – 000 buck) and they are too long to fit in the magazine (but only by less than 1/16 inch). The box specifies “.410 HANDGUN” (eg Taurus Judge), so that alone may account for the incompatibility.
Comment: With the set up described above the bolt would not lock in the open position unless I really yanked back on the charge handle. The guy at the gun store from whom I purchased the AT-14 had told me that the gun didn’t lock open, because it was designed to accomodate the .410 shotshells. I’m now pretty sure that is incorrect.
Instead, the problem turned out to be caused by the Magpul stock. I guess the travel was not great enough for the bolt spring internal to the stock. I switched to a more vanilla stock (ACE LTD) and the problem disappeared. A gentle pull on the charge handle while holding down the bolt catch is now all that is necessary to lock open the bolt.