Mumbai police now complaining about WWI rifles and WWII helmets

The Times reports the Mumbai police are now complaining about having to use WWI rifles (probably not quite true) and WWII helmets. Can you believe the audacity of these cowards!

The contrast between them was vividly illustrated yesterday by CCTV footage of two militants attacking Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus, Mumbai’s main railway station, last Wednesday.

It shows the gunmen spraying automatic fire while two constables cower behind pillars, one armed with a .303 rifle similar to the Lee-Enfield weapons used by British troops in the First World War.

800Px-Lee-Enfield Rifle
Lee-Enfield Rifle No 4 Mk I

In other words: locally produced .303 Lee-Enfield Rifle No 4 Mk I. rifles (Used by the Allies in WWII) or Ishapore .308 Lee-Enfields. Now you may think its an unfair fight with the terrorist rate of fire far higher than the police but consider this:

Terrorists: 16
Mumbai police force: 16,308 (based on India’s ratio of 126 officers per 100,000 population)
Approx. ratio of terrorists to officers: 1:1000

AK Rate of fire: 600 rounds per minutes (effective rate of fire of fire when taking into account reloading is much less)
Lee Enfield rate of fire: 20+ aimed rounds per minute (a well trained operator).

Terrorist rate of fire: 9600 rounds per minute.
Police rate of fire: 327,600 rounds per minute.

The majority of the force would not be front line officers nor would they have 16,000 rifles, but you see the point I am trying to make.

“The helmets used last week were World War Two-era, not designed for combat,” he said.

I need not comment on this ridiculous statement.

Y. P. Singh, who retired after 20 years in the Maharashtra police in 2005, said that he knew of two batches of body armour that had failed tests in 2001 and 2004. “They couldn’t take rounds from AK47 or AK56,” he said. “The bullets pierced the jackets.”

(No doubt they are referring to the Chinese Type 56 AK clone. There is no AK-56)

Most police forces around the world likely use Type II armor. I don’t think anyone expected the cops to charge the terrorist with fixed bayonets.

Most of the police involved were carrying .303s or self-loading rifles like those adopted by the British Army in the 1950s.

Some officers said that they were not given enough weapons training because of a shortage of ammunition and shooting ranges. In theory, all officers shoot 50 rounds a year in training. In practice, senior officers get their full quota with small arms.

They then admit that their arsenal also includes the [likely semi-] automatic 7.62mm NATO FN FAL. From their performance I would have guessed they never trained with arms.

800Px-Ak-47 And Type 56 Dd-St-85-01269
Type 56 (Top)

I would be criticizing any police force, from any country or city, if they performed this badly.

mattling posted this comment on the poor police response on the previous post where I discussed the attacks:

Numerous reasons:

1. Everyone’s gotten used to bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi.
2. Police forces still carry equipment from WWII (not that old but the factories all make replicas)
3. Even after years of dealing with the mob and terrorism, police hierarchy is simply not equipped to deal with these kinds of threats.
4. Private citizens can’t import modern guns, make do with homemade and unreliable pistols.
5. No intelligence on the ground and lack of inter-agency coordination.
6. Corruption plays a part as well.
Pretty much the same reasons that led to 9/11 and that lead to general police incompetence in any american city, except here the police vans don’t have kevlar lining in their doors and ambulances are cramped 10 year old suvs converted for private use. All these factors (and more) led to a domino effect which resulted in a days long siege where it would’ve ended in a matter of an evening in America.
You know there’s something wrong when police are setting up cordons with bungee cords. How do you expect them to contain these attackers on the move? Senior officers were killed within the early hours leading to even more chaos on the ground. The joker couldn’t have schemed it better. (And he’s the ultimate schemer of them all, despite all appearances and catchphrases).
Horrible analogy, but this was Heat turned into “The Kingdom”.

In unrelated new: I am kicking myself for recently turning down a Lee Enfield mk. 5 Jungle Carbine (a real one) for a very good price.

[ Photos from Wikipedia ]



Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


Advertisement

  • jdun1911

    I bought a Lee Enfield in 7.62x51NATO for around $150 a few years back. Great rifle.

    The India’s police doesn’t have the mentality to fight effectively like US police officers. If this have happen in the USA those terrorists would have been either killed by polices or armed civilians in matter of minutes and not days.

    Soft body armors and helmets won’t protect you from rifle caliber rounds. So it is a moot point for a excuse.

    A trained police officer could probably take those terrorists out with an Enfield. All you need is one shot and one second to do it from cover, but you have to be well trained. Unfortunately, the India’s police are not train in the use of firearms and tactics.

    In the USA there are many many firearms training schools. Maybe the Indian police should send some of their officers to the USA for training. At the very least they should order training videos like Kelly McCann’s Tactical Carbine or Magpul’s The Art of The Tactical Carbine. Both give you the basic fundamental and tactics. Most of it can be applied to any rifles and not just the AR.

    Anyway are you sure the Mumbai police force number in the millions?

  • jdun1911, heh, I misread the article.

    “It also illustrates how ill-prepared India’s 2.2 million-strong police force is to tackle another such attack.”

    After I wrote it, it sounded quite high. I have recalculated the figure based on the fact that India has a ratio of 126:1 of police per 100,000 population: 16,380

  • Here in Israel, our police snipers (Auxiliary) use Mauser rifles circa “before your grandfather was in diapers”.

    That doesn’t stop them from training every week at the range.

    It also doesn’t stop them from carrying modern pistols as backups.

    DoubleTapper
    DoubleTapper@gmail.com
    DoubleTapper, blogging on Guns Politics Defense from Israel

  • torefeldt

    Well the enfield aint exactly the idel weapon for CQC.

  • hga

    torefeldt: No, but shooting from behind cover it could get the job done.

    According tothis article according to the official records the Mumbai police had only 577 rifles of all types. And no range to practice.

  • Ed

    Let’s take them at their word that the guns are really World War I vintage. Didn’t Sgt. York take our an emplaced machine gun with a 1903 Springfield? Didn’t he also capture a company of Germans single handed with the same? Seems like the guns were not the problem. Any gun could have stopped the Mumbai attacks, provided it was fired.

    That’s not to say the Indian cops shouldn’t have modern firearms, but what good is a SCAR or a Tavor if it won’t be fired? Training is more important than equipment and training is more than putting rounds into paper.

  • mattling

    You’re right, the enfield isn’t suitable for CQC work, and neither are any of the other automatics carried by the army. Some constables get to carry 9mm Sten guns or the Sterling SMG (they’re all called sten guns).
    Steve, it seems that another reasons the terrorists walked around fearlessly was that they relied on the fact that the Indian policemen would not be willing to face automatic fire. Like most of their assumptions, this one was also right, as the policemen are trained not to fire unless they have specific instructions to do so which resulted in the underwhelming response.
    If you’ve noticed some of the news reports, a lot of the noted “officers” KIA were called “encounter specialists” which is basically a cop with an unofficial “license to kill” mafia members. The reasoning behind that being a literal weeding out of the mafia by thinning their numbers. So you have to wonder how bad the strategic position of the police is in combating the local yakuza that they have to grant double-o status to certain officers just to cut through the red tape.
    You throw trained killers with automatics in the mix and they just threw their guns on the ground and curled up into a fetal position.
    Sure, there have been bomb blasts before but usually all the police has to do is get there afterwords and clean up the mess. The investigation is ongoing and after a few weeks everyone goes back home.
    Btw, the terrorists guns did not have buttstocks on them, and i’m assuming they were carrying smgs in their backpacks. Someone also mentioned the local police are just responsible for crowd control or whatever but that’s beside the point. The point is that when the shooting started, these cops should have been trained to provide suppressing fire even with their pistols and rifles, put some pressure on the killers and know how to properly cordon off the streets, create a perimeter, everything any cop in the world should know how to do within minutes of any crisis.
    That area of south mumbai is THE place to be. It’s where the money is, and they never bothered to create some sort of proper plan/grid for evacuation or just chasing down common criminals?
    My prediction is that this is going to lead to further buildup of private enclaves and streets not just in mumbai but all over the country where people who can afford it will want to live in safety and I’m sure they will have no problems creating security barriers etc. for entry. Hmm..kinda like that american compound in “The Kingdom”. Oh noes….
    Reminds me of how people used to live back in the days when entire families would own a single neighborhood and employ watchmen and fortress like doors to protect them from bandits. Weird.

  • mattling

    Forgot to mention this but encounter specialists, even those who have killed in the hundreds have probably never faced full automatic fire. You can see how their expertise played itself out when they decided to butch and sundance their way into the situation.

  • jdun1911

    I’m more scare of facing an opponent that shot semi auto then fully automatic. Those so called terrorist were shooting from the hip, like you know in Hollywood movie. It would have been a lot worst if those terrorists were trained to aim.

    Fully automatic weapon are overrated. They are best use for suppression.

  • jdun1911

    Well this came in. Six gunmen shot at India’s Delhi airport. This time I think the death toll will be much less because the security force was willing to engage the terrorists.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7BAD9181E9%2DB9C6%2D495A%2D87EC%2D432578FCD9CE%7D

  • jdun1911, looks like they learned something. This from yahoo:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081204/ap_on_re_as/as_india_shooting :

    “The British Broadcasting Corp. cited unconfirmed reports from airport officials as saying late Thursday that up to six gunmen had been shot and killed at New Delhi’s international airport. But Indian officials told the AP there was a minor incident and no deaths.”

  • Man > weapon

    It works for terrorists, too.

    The combination of lousy pay + lousy training + confusion + next to no knowledge about OPFOR weapons is a pretty good explanation for the Indian police performance. Maybe it’s even the correct one.

    Semi-auto FALs with small ammunition load (I don’t expect many magazines for policemen) are inside buildings inferior to AKs with plenty ammunition.

    @jdun1911; fully automatic rifle/carbine fire is extremely useful at less than 50m distance. Most men aren’t capable to aim properly under stress (there are some ridiculous statistics about use of firearms by policemen), and sometimes you want to spray through a cover (like a thin wall) to hit.

    Rapid semi-auto fire is good for 50 to about 150, at most 200m.

    Soft targets beyond 200m are imho best dealt with with either heavier weapons (machine gun on pod or scoped rifle) or slow aimed fire from an excellent (camouflage/cover) position.

  • jdun1911

    The debate between full auto vs semi-auto in combat is long over. Semi-auto won the debate. The proof is the long list of dead combatants that use fully automatic weapon against our troops that are train to shoot semi-auto at all range.

    I’m petty sure our troops will disagree with you about not capable of aiming properly under stress.

    Tell that to the 40 Marines that got ambushed by 250 Taliban with automatic weapons and RPG. The end result IIRC was 200 dead Talibans and no Marines deaths. I believe they fought less then 50 yards because the NCO lead the charge to break the insurgent’s line.

    In the first and second battle of Falluja, US Marine went house to house killing insurgents (that had fully automatic weapons) with their A4. Scores of dead insurgents fell to the A4 in the second battle of Falluja which basically was the turning point of Iraqi insurgency. The Marines wasn’t out gunned and they know how to aim in those fights under stress.

    Full automatic weapon are good for suppression, tho.

    The death toll would have been a lot worst if those terrorists went with semi auto and understand how to aim.

  • I would not want to clear a building armed only with a semi-auto rifle. Acually I would not want to clear a building at all, but it I had to I would want a fully auto carbines or sub guns. Even without training on how to properly use them, I would feel safer knowing I could pray n’ spray.

  • Your numbers for rates of fire were transposed, but I got your drift.

  • @jdun1911;

    Let marines fight a comparable opponent who uses full auto in a surprise contact at 30m, no grenade weapons. That would give a somewhat meaningful anecdote.

    A fight that included one-sided air support, one-sided level IV vest advantage, very uneven training levels, different guns, different munitions (grenades), different leadership and different sights is simply irrelevant for the semi vs. full auto matter.

  • Mac

    This is not a question of the weapons available to the Mumbai Police or the Indian army making it impossible to engage the terrorists. It is a question of dedication and training. In a relatively open train station, I’ll settle for an Enfield No 3 or 4. One shot will take down your target and the rifle gives you a much higher degree of accuracy than you get from a pistol. For building clearing, a full auto sub-gun is nice, but with non-combatants involved, the large caliber pistol is as good a choice or better. Even an old Webley will take down a man at room distances with little trouble.

    This debacle was the result of a force that believed their weapons and themselves to be inferior to their adversaries and they were not sufficiently motivated to put their lives at risk to stop an attack upon their fellow citizens. They cowered, broke and ran, leaving unarmed, helpless people to die. Not the finest hour for Indian Law Enforcement or Military.

  • Sean Nack

    we were trained to use semi-auto all the time, and i would never roll into a room on auto or even burst. my two cents would be that in a close-range (25-50m), urban environment the person who has the advantage of surprise is going to inflict casualties, and if they have full-auto backing up that advantage they’re going to inflict even more. each method has its advantages in specific circumstances. one-on-one, enfield vs ak? on an open battlefield, that’s fine by me. urban environments are much faster paced, and yes i’m aware that the brits fought with enfields in plenty of urban environments, but times have changed: how many sturmgewehers were out there mixed in with the mausers? a group of dudes in an urban environment would be much better served with at least M14’s. if that was their weapon system, i don’t think we’d be having the same debate. but combat is determined by your preparation, your actions, and your circumstances. it seems, from what i’ve read, that the indians failed to prepare, weren’t all that good at acting, and had circumstances stacked heavily against them by people who knew how to exploit the first two. how well did american police react at columbine or virginia tech? imagine those scenarios on a much larger, better funded, and coordinated scale. fucked up as they may or may not be, my heart goes out to those guys.

  • Geronimo

    Training and experience matter. I have little doubt that a team of WWI Brit or Ghurkha riflemen would have no trouble shredding the terrorists on the spot with those Enfields.
    They received training and instruction, and their NCOs would harass the hell out of ’em so they would tend to their weapons properly. Here, there were too many people who just didn’t care if their cops were trained to shoot. As a consequence, the cops had little familiarity and confidence in their weapons, and were unwilling to shoot. What happens if, as is likely, you miss with your unzeroed rifle? A pissed-off guy with an AK hears the shot and comes after you, and you die, having achieved nothing.

  • BernardG

    What a bunch of sad looking policemen! Keep blaming of everything but themselves. But on the other hands it’s also ironic when I saw the pictures of Indian policemen and their much vaunted “commando” with their really outdated pathetic looking equipment. Even the ballistic helmet still from the bygone era (the bucket helmet). No wonder those terrorists really having field day in Mumbay.
    As a comparison here is the link from my country (Indonesia) special forces and anti terrorist task force from their last drill. Yes, my country is small but even with all the limited and obstacle they have and facing,I’m proudly saying that their level of readiness are excellent (also based from their previous track records) and their equipments are up to what an elite forces should be.

  • BernardG

    Opps, sorry, here is the link….
    http://alutsista.blogspot.com/

  • Don

    Firing from cover at moderate distances, i’d take the enfield over an AK any day. Bullets work best when they’re aimed. As far as the close quarters stuff, I’ve seen lots of videos of cops firing semi-auto during this altercation.

    My guess is that a bunch of departments not directly involved in the altercation are trying to grab more equipment when the idea is fresh in people’s minds. I think they should get lever action .44 mags.

  • comedyguy

    If they can get an Ak-56 or an Ak-47 I’m pretty sure they can get WWII weapons

  • comedyguy

    in Mexico they just use the Mexican military because the police stink over there and the Mexican military roams Mexico 24/7

  • comedyguy

    they should get a computer and find out about tactics, strategies, and other stuff on WIKEPEDIA!!!

  • comedyguy

    If Mexican Cholos\gangsters can get good weapons likes M16s, Aks, or other weapons thats sad that the Indian law can’t get any of those weapons

  • omkar

    i’ll say that mumbai police must not be compared with usa. In usa’s big cities like LA,NY,Miami,etc. Crimes involving weapons and crime rate are far more ahead compared to mumbai. So its a daily affair for us cops whereas in mumbai, guns related crimes were carried by underworld and which the mumbai police has successfully eliminated them. In mumbai, cops were not Prepared coz no one imagined of this ever. They wasnt prepared coz gun related crimes are so rare in mumbai. Its a peaceful place where we all hav come to earn our bread.
    Its the government who should be blamed for inadequate funds, coz they think police dept is unproductive. If they r not able to pay cops well, how will they spend on weapons?
    And how we should expect cops to handle this all with mental stress of low paymet, 12hrs of work with no weekly off (which can go upto 1 or 2 days in festive seasons and other imp days), less time for family?
    Instead of blaming them, we should respect them who stood against terrorists with those outdated guns n faulty or no bulldtproof jackets. They are just a common man in khaki.
    Read this for the answer of comparing 16 terrorists to 16k cops- one cop was going home after finishing his duty. We went to cst after he heard gunshots with just a lathi in his hand. He died. He could hav gone home
    acp vishwas nagre patil held terrorist in taj with a pistol n some cops with 303 for three hours till comandos arrived
    i’m a wheelchair bound,20 sybcom student. Rply me on omidgr8@gmail.Com

  • I am really amused and not a little disgusted by some of these ill informed comments, made by people who were probably ensconed in the safety of their homes, even as Indian Army personnel as NSG commandos battled blood-thirsty Pakistani terrorists, during the recent Mumbai mayhem.

    And what would you expect, with these blood thirsty mass murderers taking hundreds of hostages from Europe, the US and Israel, holed up in a few of the 600 rooms at the Taj, on several floors. I am sure your SEALs and Deltas would have had a very tough time, though they are world class in their own right.

    Indian Army has unmatched expertise in battling insurgency and terrorism for 50 years, in jungles, deserts and mountains. Why else would US Green Berets, British, Russian and Israeli ‘special forces’ land up at its Counter-Insurgency School in Mizoram (India), for training, especially after your 9/11.

    Most of these comments are missing the wood for the trees. I agree that although the police disgraced itself thoroughly at the CST railway station, but then it is not simply a question of 16,308 against 16 fanatical terrorists.

    The question is what did the 20 or 30 armed police constables who were present there do, except running away like cowards, blaming their vintage bolt action Lee Enfield rifles. If you have watched those video clips being aired on news channels, you would have heard a terrorist like Kasab firing single rounds from his AK-47, discharging two every second, like a bolt action gun.

    I am sure some of these constables were armed with 9mm carbines and self loading rifles. Had even half-a-dozen armed with Lee Enfields fired in unision, they would have felled the two terrorists. After all an Enfield packs in a tremendous wallop, with a range of one mile or 1,760 yards.

    Do you know what happened in the Sino-Indian war of 1962. Major Dhan Singh Thapa, who commanded a platoon of Indian infantrymen on those bleak Himalayan heights at Sri Jap in Ladakh, with temperatures 20 degrees below Zero, took on the might of a entire Chinese battalion, armed only with yes Lee Enfield rifles, a few carbines, a light machine gun and two inch mortars.

    On the other hand, the Chinese were armed with modern weapons, including mounted machine guns, artillery support and also tanks. But do you know the outcome. Major Thapa and his men, although vastly outnumbered and outgunned, decimated two thirds of the Chinese on October 20, 1962. How? They were a highly motivated bunch of soldiers, not cowards in Khaki who ran away on November 26, 2008 in Mumbai.

    Will the Indian mainstream media ever highlight this act of bravery beyond the call of duty. How could these poorly armed soldiers fight with antiquated .303 (Enfields), except for their sense of duty.

    I think we Indians and especially our filthy politicians should hang their heads in shame.

    The Indian media also disgraced itself by making martrys of three police officers who died without firing a shot, while shamelessly ignoring the courage of a lone police inspector who had gripped Kasab in a wrestling tackle, even after taking an eight or nine round burst into his abdomen, fired by the terrorist’s weapon, sacrificing his life, but not before ensuring the mass murderer’s arrest.

    Another women journalist from a TV channel, owned by a daily that never tires of boasting about being the world’s largest selling English newspaper, identifed a grenade launcher (being fired by an armyman at a door at The Taj) as a ‘rocket launcher.’ The media completely obscured the role of the army, without whose exterminating those terrorist was not possible.

  • I have gone through a bewildering array of comments on your website, representing a spectrum of opinions and views, mostly aired by non combatants and civilians, who might just have ‘fired a few shots,’ to quote John Rambo in First Blood, part II.

    Some of the comments are fairly well informed. Others are frivolous, dismissive or resort to villification. Still many others are openly contemptuous of the Indian Army, undoubtedly one of the finest militaries in the world and easily the most battle hardened.

    Tell me if the Indian Army were so bad, why would US, British and Israeli Army special forces come knocking at its doors to learn the basics of fighting terrorists and insurgents in an urban environment and in close combat, at their Counter insurgency and Warfare School in Mizoram in India–the only institution in the world that imparts such training.

    These militaries know that the Indian Army has built up an unrivalled expertise and experience over 50 years of fighting such terrorists, insurgents and jihadi psychopaths in urban, jungle and mountain terrains.

    If you may recall, it was the same Indian Army which overran and liberated the then East Pakistan in 1971, in only 14 days, a military feat which remains unparalleled to this day, freeing the soil of the clutches of the Pakistani Army, fully supported by the likes of ‘Tricky Dick’ President Nixon, (of Watergate infamy), which had butchered three million innocents in the worst ever genocide against its Bengali populace.

    The territory conquered by Indian forces was one and a half times the size of France, which took Hitler’s Blitzkrieg 40 days to overrun!!! One should be mindful of history and facts when attacking the Indian Army.

    Incidentally, the black cats from the National Security Guards (NSG) who killed Jihadi terrorists in the Mumbai mayhem last November, were not pulled off ‘security guard duties’ as one Erde misleadingly mentions in his comments. They were from Special Action Group (SAG) 51 and 52 of the Indian Army, which forms the actual combat wing of the NSG. You must have noticed them interacting freely with their Army counterparts in combat fatigues and battle dress, deployed at the Taj in live TV news, but not communicating with policemen.

    Those bloack cats guarding so called VIPs are from Special Rangers Group (SRG), drawn from police organisations. The latter are never engaged in operations like Mumbai, which is solely the prerogative of the military wing of the NSG. But both of them are trained by the Indian Army.

    Blame the Indian political establishment, which has shamed the nation and its army with its cowardly show in Mumbai, delaying army action and permitting terrorists to regroup and murder civillians at will. It was also an intelligence failure of colossal magnitude.

    I believe the REAL HERO of Mumbai was INSPECTOR UMBLE of the Mumbai police, who had pinned down a blood thirsty murderer like Kasab with his bare hands, even taking seven or eight AK-47 rounds in his belly and ensuring his capture. Tell me, how many in the US or British special forces are capable of such feats without their weapons. But nobody in the highly politicised electronic or print media in India ever had a word of praise for the Unsung HERO. Is it because of his lower middle class origins???

    Significantly, the NSG is headed by a member of the Indian Police Service, a non combatant, thanks to a policy of pathological distrust of military men, that our ministers, bureaucrats and the police have inherited from a Fabian socialist like Nehru, India’s first prime minister. Incidentally, Nehru will go down in history as the man solely responsible for the most ignominious defeat ever inflicted on India by Chinese hordes in 1962.

    What is more, they are dressing up policemen like soldiers. But can these faux soldiers ever battle insurgents. Never.

    In the United States, any number of admirals and generals have headed the CIA, whose undercover wars are always fought by US Army special forces in East Europe, Afghanistan or elsewhere. In Russia and United Kingdom too, the military plays a vital role in their intelligence agences. But not so in India, where such outfits are always headed by police wallahs, who are non combatants and have no experience in undercover work. No wonder they are always making a mess of intelligence gathering.

    Indian spy outfits, basically a police turf, are governed by 100-year-old British procedures, which is why the MUMBAI MAYHEM took place and why terrorists can invade India at will, a problem compounded by a really weak prime minister.

    No wonder these khakied outfits are beaten hands down by their ISI counterparts, which is a Pakistani Army establishment, manned by battle hardened career officers–also the sponsors of terrorist groups and the Taliban.

    Shudip

  • Komrad

    Well said shudip.

  • The Lee Enfield or .303 should not be taken lightly because it happens to be an antique bolt action weapon. Do you recall the great opium war in China 1907, if memory serves right.

    The British forces eliminated 90 percent of the opium drugs lords in a pitched gun battle with the help of the Lee Enfield. Most of these thugs thought they could defeat guns by the virtue of being experts in Kung Fu. It is a different matter in Hollywood where five-foot-nothing imports from the Middle Kingdom beat the hell out of 20 white guys with thier Kung Fu styles.

    Shudip

  • Jan

    Pathetic incompetence on the part of the Indian police and commandos. To think that 10 terrorists could cause so much destruction in a modern city, and outnumbered thousands to one by the police. I watched videos of the thing and the police and commandos looked ill-equipped and trained. As comparison, take a look at the very well-trained and well-equipped pictures of Chinese paramilitary in Urumqi efficienctly controlling crowds of Uighurs and Han Chinese. Just as the infrastructure of India needs help, so does equipment for its police! 🙁

  • I agree that incompetence of the police was very conspicuous, especially at the CST station in Mumbai where 20 of them could not take on a fanatical murderer like Kasab.

    But it is a travesty of facts to suggest that commandos from Special Action Groups 51 and 52 of the Indian Army, the combat wing of the National Security Guards were ill equipped or untrained.

    If only Jan had observed rather than looked at the videos, he would have known that commandos were armed with sophisticated weapons.

    If Jan is being so critical of the Indian Army then he only need recall Besalan. The Russian military Spetsnaz, which is known to be ruthlessly effective, killed hundreds of innocent school children along with a few dozen Chechen terrorists. Do we then assume that Spetsnaz is incompetent or incapable.

    It is not just a question of 10 terrorists holding up thousands of policemen. What would your Delta force, SAS or the SEALS have done when the Taj has 600 rooms on several floors and they were holding hundreds of hostages, locals and foreigners. They would have acted in the much same way as the Indian commandos had done. There was no other choice.

    The comparison with China is pointless and odious. It has never faced such depredations and has no experience of dealing with terrorists. Controlling the Uighurs and Han Chinese is no big deal. Indian policemen have been doing it daily for 60 years.

    Do you know what happened in the Sino-Indian war of 1962. Major Dhan Singh Thapa, who commanded a platoon of Indian infantrymen at Sri Jap in Ladakh, in sub-zero temperatures, beat the hell out of an entire Chinese battalion of 600. Thapa and his armed only with yes Lee Enfield rifles, a few carbines, a light machine gun and a single two inch mortars.

    On the other hand, the Chinese were armed with modern weapons, including mounted machine guns, artillery support, mortars and tanks. But do you know the outcome. Major Thapa and his 34 men, although vastly outnumbered and outgunned, killed more than 400 of the Chinese on October 20, 1962. The three Indian survivors were overrun and taken prisoners. It is a question of exemplary leadership and motivation, which Thapa displayed in abundance on thoese bleak heights, which I must admit was missing among the policemen in Mumbai on that fateful day.

  • tublue122

    Shudip…

    “Do you know what happened in the Sino-Indian war of 1962. Major Dhan Singh Thapa, who commanded a platoon of Indian infantrymen at Sri Jap in Ladakh, in sub-zero temperatures, beat the hell out of an entire Chinese battalion of 600. Thapa and his armed only with yes Lee Enfield rifles, a few carbines, a light machine gun and a single two inch mortars.

    On the other hand, the Chinese were armed with modern weapons, including mounted machine guns, artillery support, mortars and tanks. But do you know the outcome. Major Thapa and his 34 men, although vastly outnumbered and outgunned, killed more than 400 of the Chinese on October 20, 1962.”

    Do you actually believe that really happened? Reading your above comments, it’s clear that you are completely blind to whatever one sided propaganda you read about the Sino-Indian War or of the Indian military for that matter.

    According to Wikipedia, there were 1,383 military casualties on the Indian side and 722 on the Chinese side. So what you’re trying to say is that 34 Indian soldiers were responsible for killing at least 55% of the Chinese casualties during the 6 month war?

  • Dear tublue122 or whoever you are behind your mask of anonymity. I must say that your comments are biased and one-sided and you are prepared to believe the worst of the Indian Army, which, even though let down badly by the political dispensation under Nehru, fought the Chinese under sub zero temperatures and sub human conditions, heroically—in many cases to the last round and the last man. It also betrays your lack of familiarity with the basics of Indian military history.

    How do you presume that it is mere propaganda. Your are quoting Wikipedia, which admittedly is based on incomplete facts and is far from being the last word on factual matters. Otherwise it wouldn’t be needing corrections all the time. In fact Col Thapa salvaged something of the national pride from the ashes of its most humiliating defeat at the hands of the Chinese.

    Where does Wikipedia come into the picture when it has even been admitted officially by the Chinese that Lt Col Dhan Singh Thapa and his platoon wiped out two thirds of the fully armed artillery and tank supported battalion. You will also find these facts mentioned in authorative published sources including The Times of India. Col Thapa, then a major, won Param Vir Chakra, the country’s highest gallantry award and the equivalent of the Victoria Cross, for the supreme act of valour.

    Col Thapa also personally shared with me the details of Sri Jap in Ladakh where he engaged invading Chinese hordes in 1962. He said that fear of survival makes a man a coward. But when you know that you are faced with the prospect of certain death, then all fear leaves you and you fight to the finish.

    Col Thapa’s platoon was wiped out. The four surviving men, including Thapa ran out of ammunition and were overrun and taken prisoners by the Chinese.

    • Guys please stop arguing. This solves nothing. I am sure both the Indian troops and Chinese troops fought bravely.

  • Dear Steve,

    Thank you for your comments, but may I remind you that the Chinese were the aggressors in 1962. They are still encroaching on Indian territory. They were beaten back by India at Nathula in 1967 when they tried similar tactics. Then in the seventies Vietnam “taught them a lesson,” when they invaded the tiny country, if memory serves right. The Chinese are overrated as soldiers, except for their overwhelming numbers. They haven’t fought any wars in 50 years.

    • shudip, I realize that there is animosity, but this blog is not the place to debate. This blog is for people to come together, not to fight.

  • Thank you, dear Steve.