And whats all this crap about India being ill-equipped and ill-trained. India spends $30 Billion on military…which is 3rd/4th highest in the world….I mean come on. Blaming the NSG/MARCOS for slow response; its not their fault. Its all political bullshit, we cant blame the soldiers for it, we must blame the politcians.

And, unfortunately 2 brave commandos lost their life. Not 10, I dont know what your sources are…

MARCOS battle terrorists in Kashmir everyday, with 100% success rate, lets hope it remains like that. They are one of the elite units in the world. Does’nt matter what you all say or think.

7.62×39 –>medium recoil. able to penetrate walls, some body armor, high stopping power.
9×19–>low recoil. wall penetration? some degree. defeat body armor? NOPE. unless close range of course. stopping power is, well, low. but in the hotel the range is really low. it can stop effectively.
.303–> the ct force didnt use this the hotel. plus nobody will use this in urban close range conditions.
7.62×51–>i dunno if the cts used this in the hotel…

verdict: both main weapons have their pros and cons, but in those conditions both would work the same. it doesnt matter who was using what. the mumbai police have no excuse to the incident.

pyschologically, i would pee in my pants if i hear an ak47 go off. the muzzle brake kills all ears. i dont think the commandoes would do that though.

What is your idea in terms of failure on the part of Indian government, Indian security forces and Indian media. I understand that it was an unusual situation but media coverage gave an impression that entire Indian machinery was in chaos. It was an incident of terrorism, whereas the entire nation was seem to be in the state of war. What will happen if India has to go on war with Pakistan for which, very unfortunately, your government seems to be bent upon.

I understand that I have hurled too many questions at you. All of them are, however, peripheral. My main question is, if you put your emotionalism and nationalism aside, what were the deficiencies in terms of special weapons and tactics on the part of Indian Special forces? What would you suggest to your government or your commander regarding weapons, tactics and training to combat such situation in future?

The logic of this question is that you cannot afford anymore failure in future. You faced more or less similar terrorism when your parliament was attacked, but it seems as if neither the lessons were learned nor did your military made any serious effort to foresee and plan to counter such situations.

And last but not the least, leave your nationalism aside, would you like your special forces be trained by US commandos if it is officially offered to you by our government?

Please reply.

Period.

That was the failure generally on the part of Indian government and particularly on the part of Indian armed forces that they did not foresee the situation and trained and equipped themselves for a just-in-case situation.

Now it is important to determine from where Indian security forces get training to combat such a determined, fanatic die-hard attackers. These guys are perfect killing machines. I guess there were many casualties among Indian commandos. I can assess this by observing images and extent of details available on Internet and media resources.

The hotel they fought in was like a labyrinth. Searching and killing terrorists with hostages was a daunting task for Indian commandos. Ill-equipped and ill-trained Indian commandos must have bore the brunt of ruthless and bent-upon-death diehards.

I guess at least 10 to 12 Indian commandos must have lost their lives. During these gun-battles, many hostages must have been killed, all of them credited to terrorists. This is the worst part that will never be disclosed by Indian authorities. This is where training come into play. If Indian commandos had been trained professionally and equipped with right weapons such as corner shots, etc. the result of this gun-battle would have been quite different.

I suggest, Indian commandos should contact either US, UK or Israel for such training. I doubt if they could develop this capability on their own.

I know equipment does not make the Soldier, but in a scrap I know it helps.

This tragic episode does nothing for India’s military reputation.

The NSG commandos will now be placed in major Indian cities such as Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Kolkatta and New Delhi. They will be assigned to their bases permanently.

Lets hope this will happen.

It’s easy for people to talk, when they have NEVER experienced any of this combat first hand.

Take it easy

But I’ll play along, cause it’s a game that’s easy to win! We in the USA believe our military is the greatest because it is, except possibly for Finland.

We have never lost a war that had the government properly behind it; we lost Vietnam because our government peristed in treating it as a ‘police action’; because our military is ultimately under civilian authority, and the civilian authority persisted in ordering rules of engagement totally unsuited to the conflict.

In 1812 the US was still a rural breakaway colony of the British Empire, largest empire in history, with the most powerful army and navy in the world; the war was fought to a negotiated peace in which both sides compromised; the British went on to conquer so much of the rest of the Earth that the sun never set on their empire, but “John Bull” (derogatory American term for the British) never tangled with “Cousin Jonathan” (derogatory British term for the Americans) again.

The US does have a long history of studying French military technique dating back to the aid that the Marquis of Lafayette and others provided in the Revolutionary War. The French were pretty good in those days. See Napoleon Bonaparte.

Sven, you’ve reminded us of failure at the Kasserine; we went on to many spectacular victories, sometimes against overwhelming odds, later; how did the militaries of Norway or Denmark or Sweden do resisting the Nazis in WWII? The only nations with fewer failures than the US were those afraid to fight.

And there we see the motivation for this yapping like a little dog behind a fence barking at a big dog; jealousy.

To be realistic instead of just playing, a lot of the best militaries in the world are from little nations that have regularly fought (even if unsuccessfully) enormously larger nations, e.g Finland, Poland, Lithuania, Israel, many others. In truth, rating the really good ones one against another is impossible; no two battles are the same, and even if they were the armies have different strengths and weaknesses.

It’s a fact that U.S.Americans believe their military is the greatest – they don’t see its many shortcomings as anything else than accidental and don’t draw conclusions of its many embarrassing failures against other armies.
And they don’t know that the U.S.Army was the apprentice of the French army and the U.S.Navy the apprentice of the Royal Navy in the First World War – the French influence was extremely overt till the 30’s and even today the U.S.Army is still preaching firepower as solution to almost all military challenges as did the French in 1917.

US vs British forces is well established, please refer to American history and the US Revolution. We kicked their bloody arses.

end of story.

When you blame ISI, you should blame CIA too, which was an equal accomplice in creating these holy warriors. See, these intelligence agencies do such dirty things. CIA does it, ISI does it, so does RAW. RAW is engaged in subversive activities against Pakistan using Afghanistan as a base camp. This is a well known fact. RAW is behind tribal insurgency in Baluchistan and NWFP province of Pakistan. If RAW is doing all this, it is doing it for its country. So does ISI or CIA or any other agency.

RAW did a wonderful job by creating trouble for Pakistan in its backyard, however, it was dismally failed in tracing the terrorist elements within its own country. If I agree with you that ISI is behind it, why RAW failed to detect it in advance. That’s the failure on its part.

Indian are proud of their armed forces and commandos, all these claims are judged by solid performance. This time performance was dismal. When I say dismal, I don’t say that Indian commandos are poor performers or unprofessional. A commando of any country is a commando, whether it be US, UK, Pakistan, Israel or India.

Pakistanis commandos performed poorly during PANAM hijacking case. They later learned the lesson and incorporated it in their training. They got training for anti terrorist activities wherever they could. Western analysts are damned impressed observing their performance in war on terror. You have no idea what they did in Baluchistan. Their commandos lost their lives, yet was able to play a crucial role in eliminating the tribal leader being supported by India. On many other occasions they proved themselves true to what they are trained for.

Indian commandos were not fully equipped to take on the challenge during Mumbai carnage. If they had similar equipment and training as that of their US counterparts, they could have finished this drama quickly, swiftly and with much less casualty.

I also went through the story of battle of Longewala. It was a great victory on the part of India. However, what I noticed was emotional tone on the part of Indian writers. I don’t know why you Indians and Pakistanis are so emotional when you write about war history. You should learn from western historians. You can point out this emotionalism in Hollywood movies, yet for our war historians, war is a war. Let me know about any Indian or Pakistani website that could give me neutral and unemotional account of the wars you two great nations have fought with each other. Your emotional responses with regards to India-Pakistan hatred is now forcing me to read your war history.

All I need is unbiased and propaganda free website. Whatever, I have gone through is not up to the mark.

2. Israel

3. French Foriegn Legion.

4. National Security Guards (N.S.G.) INDIA – known as black cat commando,most toughest training, Morning starts with 10 km warm up daily & 32 km long run once a week,Must have shooting accuracy of 98 %,Must Fire 200+ rounds/day .Never ending courses CIJWS(counter insurgency & jungle warfare only in the world) School after that Medium attitude school & at last high school at 22000 feet(only in the world).101 operation no failure 1 casualty.

The USA have the greatest Firepower but by no means do we have the greatest Soldiers. This is a Well known Fact. (Not known by many Americans).
Actually the French Foreign Legion are shock troops and not really special forces at all. There are many different Israeli (not israil) SMU’s and they all do different things,so you would have to be more specific.As for it being a “well known fact” that the U.S doesn’t have the greatest soldiers,the U.S Special Forces trains the Indian NSG. There is also no way to prove who is the toughest or smartest soldier in the world. Firing ,in itself,200 rounds a day is no accomplishment and I doubt the Indian army has the budget to afford this.Please do not post answers on a topic if you do not know what you are talking about.

Typicall american. Insulted when told USA have by no means the best trained troops even in the western world let alone the whole world. our troops are undertrained, un experienced bafoons with huge firepower. They shoot at and bomb our own allies and eachother. And it does matter how many shots your firing when tryin to keep a 98% shooting acuraccy fool, the more the harder it is. And it is very obvious that the SAS of the british special forces would just tear any country a new hole, including our powerfull one. Our troops would in no way be able to hande the SAS or other special forces even with the worlds greatest firepower. Stop watching hollywood movies and stop looking at military budgets and start looking at the soldiers that actually fight. Weve won just over 50% of our wars! thats pathetic…the british have been fighting from the beggining of time and have an 85% war record! Our soldiers arent in the same class.

It just so happens that India’s Special Forces is one of the best in the world right now right up there with the SAS .Indian MARCOS is the best amphibious assault division( probably even better than US Navy Seals) even capable of high altitude combat and paratrooping.The reason we don’t hear much about them is because they maintain a shroud of secrecy. Even their wives don’t know if they are in the MARCOS. The operation success rate of the Indian special Forces is enviable

I’d like to know from where you got the info that the US special forces trains NSG commandos?.. And yeah the Us has probably the most fire power..but just look at the operation success rates and you’ll get the picture. The SAS and Indian Special Forces has enviable success rate. Look out for the Indian MARCOS(Marine Commandos) are one of the best amphibious assault units in the world(may be even better than or at par with the Navy Seals)

******************************************* reply for ( after 4th nos) quote

hahaaaaa NSG trained from USA soldiers gud keep it u day dreamer hahaaa

But i thought u often came here to learn ABCD of counter insurgency & jungle warfare i have watched 1000 of pic CIJWS ,HIGH ALTITUDE SCHOOL, are ur desirable schools

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1982&page=2 check this

U can find google fulll of such images

I came to know in past that u apply for a joint exercise with NSG but NSG rejected it (2007) haahaa because they just don’t need joint excercise they are black cat as they shown in Mumbai rescued 200+ peoples

my cousin is a NSG (in Special Rangers Group commando) not in striking group so i definetly hav knowledge abt it

anyone can excercise with MARCOS ,Garud,Ghatak ,SFF or if come with luck then with Indian Para commando 9th bat( http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Para.html.) but u can’t with NSG

They have their own world their own tacties ,their own technics ,diffrent successful stratergies So they don’t like to share it with other forces

************* about budget well sir Glad to tell u that India’s Spend per day on Siachen Galacier (highest battlefield in the world) is about $ 1.5 + to 2 million dollar / day (India able to afford this)

So i dont think spending 200 -200 bullets by elite commandos is a problems

after all this is for NatIon

NSG commandos are super human This is Human Engg at its best they trained at 22000 feet,-30c to 54′c (In Rajayastan)

once UK.s SF (unknown) come here to joint excercice with para 9 th batallion

at the 22000 feet (high school) ,intially they were 80 & when process strat ( 1st stay at 10000 feet for 1 week ,after 15000 for 4days,after 19000 for 1week after 22000 for 3 days) beleive me or not only 5 declared as physically fit & complete join excercise with Para.

Para is grand child of NSG So hope u get some clue abt NSG abilities

The USA have the greatest Firepower but by no means do we have the greatest Soldiers. This is a Well known Fact. (Not known by many Americans).
Operation Ashwamedh :
All that is visible is a blur of black, the glint of metal and then two muffled cracks – shots from silencer-fitted machine pistols. The commandos of an elite counter-hijack squad of the National Security Guards (NSG), wearing menacing black hoods, have just stormed a Boeing-737, hijacked by the Hizbul Mujahideen at New Delhi’s Indira Gandhi International Airport, seconds after receiving the green signal from the Crisis Management Group.
Fourteen men from a Quick Reaction Team of the NSG, armed with the H&K 9mm MP-5 sub-machine guns, Glock 17 or the Sig Sauer pistols and poison-tipped knives, split into pairs and enter the plane through seven different entrance points, the doors and the cockpit.
The team takes the three hijackers by complete surprise. In fact the two patrolling the aisle are dead with soft-penetration, non-ricochetable ammunition in their heads even before they have time to react. And the third hijackers is disarmed in the cockpit by the No.1 team. Time taken for the entire operation; a mere 12 seconds.
Training- For starters there is a 26-item, 780 metre obstacle course, with a qualifying time of 18 minutes. If a person completes the course in 25 minutes, he is deemed fit. The best do it in less than nine minutes. The obstacles have to do with heights, horizontal gaps and vertical scaling and are difficult to tackle in sequence. As if this is not enough, there’s a target shooting session at the end of the obstacle course meant to test the aspirants’ performance under severe stress and exhaustion.
In the Combat Room Shoot, the combatant enters a dark room, adjusts to the darkness and engages the target with either a torch light or a compatible laser image intensifier – all within three seconds. And not just in darkness but under the strobe lights of a discotheque as well, which are some of the most difficult shots to take. “We train them to take only head shots. And two at a go – the double tap system. It’s to ensure neutralization of the target. In the close hostage-terrorist situations we face there is little scope for body shots,” says Colonel Dutta
The men are also put through a battle inoculation program where they have to stand right next to the target while one of their partners shoots at it. “They have to become used to live bullets flying under their noses. Also the person shooting is conscious that if he misses by even a couple of inches the bullet is going to hit his partner.” says an instructor.
The NSG is an elite force providing a second line of defence to the nation. They have played a pivotal role in safeguarding the unity of India and have commendably foiled attempts of anti-national elements to tear apart the social fabric of the country. They are like nukes. The ultimate back-up.
i dont doubt India’s capability’s but you have to look at the sheer numbers u say wonder why japan didn’t move into India? maybe it had something to do with the 2.5 million man army? or the fact that people join the Indian army at 16. when americans still have 6 more years of school. there 219 million people fit for military service. thats half of the u.s. population. so they have alot more people to qualify with. also india is a poorer country many people serve to feed there family’s. i don’t doubt the Indian forces because they definitely have the money as a country and they are top 3 in almost every category including weapons production. but like you said they are fighting a different kind of war then Americans. and u say americans don care about life ur wrong americans care about american lives. why would we care about iraqis who we give billion in food and aid. and they turn around and drive a carbomb into a crowd killing one american and 60 iraqis they dont care about there own lives. so ur right we dont care about there lives why would we run into a building crowded with terrorist when we can blow it up from the safety of our bases?

REP.

not 16 the average age to join Army as a Cadet in India is 18 year / after 12 th grade ,Applicant hav to clear NDA (National Defense Academy) examination & after 1 week rigorous interview .Then training process starts for next 3 year (Cadet pursue their Graduation side by side) & after that few join other specialise courses for advance Study or specialization So indirectly Cadet become a officer in the age of 21. but Non-officer rank has training time period of 1 year & other few month training
.We support Americans but envading in another country is not correct . Bush forced America & Iraq in d war . Suppose we attack on Pak. & capture its territory then they will support our army, Never it will be another Iraq .& human life is human life
It has same cost in America as well as in Uganda
Yes we are poor although i am not belong to a poor family but i Recognize India as poor country because there is no proportionality here.There are few who wine n dine daily spend millions & few who work daily just for 2 time meal.
Anyways
I was surfing net & hav found a intersting Counter terrorism incident
That was Waco Texax in 1993 this operation was a complete disaster 75 men burnt alive due to Polic Tear gas & 5-10 SF personnel killed unknown injured
Kindly dont alter post let it go its not against any Nation /any SF the fact is all soldiers r Brave .

I am’t angry because ur’t a Paki
Its not ur fault i know Gk of a American It Start with a America & end on America.
So our forces are least tested in the world huh haaaaaa-haaaaaaaa my frds are laughing & i don’t know how to deal with —— like u Anyways writing some facts
1} Tell me name of a country where Military operation (Counter terrorism operation) carried out on every morning (at least one operation)yes every morning 1st they Kill terrorists after take their Breakfast.
No idea ok wat can i expect from u check this http://tinyurl.com/5hd2s6& there some pics of US soldier too taking lesson from Indian Soldiers

2} abt brave soldier —- we redefined the term “Mountain Warfare “Military expert from all over the world said it is impossible but my Army didn’t think twice said Impossible is nothing no clue wat i m talkng abt- check this http://tinyurl.com/5orc2y i can tell u 1000000000*100000000 stories abt bravery in Indian Army but its not story telling boards
If you hav some kind of Military knowledge then probably you know about
“Patton tanks” that was your technology given to PAK in 1971 war.Whole tank regiment was f**** by Indian Army & IAF in Longewala in a single day known AS “SAGA OF LONGEWALA” 40 tank completely distroyed.Our men give supreme sacrifice That was a simple strategy every soldier had a ANTI-TANK mine & jump in front of Moving tanks. That’s what we are .DID ur army give dis type of supreme scarifies
oooooooooh sorry forgot abt ur saber Jet hahaaa haahaaa scr*** by IAF brutally. cheers Americans were so angry they send their war ship to Indian Oceans.
&&& in WW2 CHINESE * * * * by JAPS but wat u think why Japs unable to proceed in India ,Due to British? haha that was Indian Army they didn’t give a inch of the grounds to Japs

there are many stories I can proudly tell u any time

Ur army just know how to send signal to Cruise Missile & kill innocent people nothing else
It needs something to carry out operation on their own. GUTS
************************Yes there is no doubt Black cats are best They rescued 300 people in 40 h & kill 12 terrorist

I understand Americans don’t care abt human life’s they just think it must be complete soon so they can eat A s*** burger perhaps they attack with Cruise missile to get rid of it ASAP haahahaaaaaaaaa:-)
NSG rescued 300+ people wat else
&&&&&&&& last question if our Army is not a expert in Counter insurgency then why American come here do they like Indian’s ——-

In the annals of modern warfare, the 1971 war between India and Pakistan is regarded as a template of brilliance. Within 13 days, the Indian army routed Pakistan in one of the swiftest campaigns of the 20th century.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98280&page=7

Indian Side 120 soldiers 4-8 RCL gun mounted on jeeps ,5-10 Hunters,many anti-tank mine but not deployed sate.
Pakistani side -4000+ soldiers , 100-110 Patton Tanks (some chinese Too),Air support
Result- 40-60 Paki tanks destroyed completly,20 return to base in damaged conditions Captured-20-40,2000-3000 Paki soldier killed unknown captured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Longewala

Search Longewala on google images & it will you all destroyed tank
This battle is also known as “Battle of Longewala” or “SAGA OF LONGEWALA”

what was the biggest Military Surrender??

It was Poor Pak army 93000 soldiers surrender in Front of brave Indian Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Surrender_(1971)
You all seem to be missing the point, each special force has a speciality. . . You see in africa the South African Recce’s are prob the world’s best in african bush warfare! As of the new government they have deteriorated a lot during the apartheid regime even though they were racists they were exceptional and the stories of their feats are nearly unparalleled. There is no one best special force, it’s all variable you see. Take into account terrain, adversaries, goals etc etc. . .

The assertion that the Pakistani government doesnt have anything to do with terrorism in South Asia is only true if you define the Pakistani government as “Asif Al Zardari” . Sure, he has no idea who these people are and what was going on. But if you were to talk about a government as in the traditional sense like Pakistani military, intelligence agencies, civil bodies and other institutions, you would be completely wrong.

The CIA indicated the direct complicity of ISI and other Pakistani agencies in terrorist attacks across Afghanistan, India, Iraq and even the West in the 90s itself. Several Department of State officials and high ranking national security ofiicials in the US are aware that Pakistan’s state sponsored bodies like its intelligence agency and its military agency are directly responsible for aiding and training many of these terrorist groups directly. If you consider, a country’s military and intelligence agencies to be part of its government than your earlier assertion that Pakistan’s government has no role in it is misplaced.

To the casual Western observer, the Indian propensity to blame Pakistan may seem premature and emotional but when 99 out of a 100 times in the past investigations have led to groups in Pakistan supported by Pakistani intelligence and military agents, its pretty easy to draw conclusions based on a glance alone. That may be a fault but that is the natural response to
a well known pattern of incidents. It would be the same as blaming insurgents for any new IED explosions in Iraq prior to any investigation as it is a pattern that we all have come to know . Same is the case with suicide bombings in Israel.

So, when you have a government spokesman that pleads ignorance and pledges co-operation on one hand and at the same time you have the government’s agencies supplying terrorist with GPS devices, there really isnt much faith to go around. What most of the West doesnt understand is that civilian government in Pakistan is merely a token government. The actions of its military and intelligence services and their agendas are all their own. The problem of pakistan based terrorists has not started with Mumbai or even begun since 9/11. It is part of a concerted Islamist ideology supported by all sections of Pakistan’s various military, intelligence and civil bodies to wage this kind of campaign of terror against India, the US, the West and Israel. To the average Indian, Pakistan is like a diseases infested sore that the world wont treat. let India treat and wont put out of its misery but is left alone only to spread its sickness to other’s and fester.

The only reason India hasnt responded earlier and with an iron hand is because in India quite the opposite of Pakistan, the central political authority governs everything. Thus, matters of national security and intelligence fall victim to political considerations. Cracking down hard on sleeper cells would mean investigating a large percentage of India’s muslim population which would alienate them as potential voters. On the other hand, in-action leads to tragedies like Mumbai. In the middle, the Indian citizenry is caught in a balance between the considerations of minority liberties and overall national security imperatives. Sooner or latter should these terrorist activities continue and affect more Indian lives, the West can do nothing but witness an all out nuclear war that will end Pakistan and hurt millions of India badly. Hence. both the US and other Western governments pressuring Pakistan’s government to act on its internal problems.

To say the pakistani’s have suffered here too is not true. Even a cursory look at world history would show that Paksitan was created to be a muslims state. A state that went from moderately islmaic to fundamentally so. Modern Islamic terrorism was conceived, and nurtured in Pakistan to help achieve their international goals. Now, having lost control of their little “frankenstein” they play the victim- hapless and in need of protection! Do we pity those who get burnt playing with fire ? Or do we take it that they are getting their just rewards ?

Should such events occur in future, Indian law enforcement agencies will have no excuse for the failure. After watching the whole coverage, I got the impression that Indian media and government was putting blame on Pakistan, which is itself caught in deadly terrorist activities. If LeT or any other group was involved in this incident, there definitely are more sleeping cells in India.

There is lot of India-Pakistan controversy going on. I see no point in this blame game. I am sure Pakistani government is not involved, directly or indirectly, in these attacks. I suggest Indian leadership should show some restraint, as another such event will lead this great country to a devastating war, a war where no one will be the winner.

As a westerner, the thing that shudders me is the spectre of war between these two great nations. My greatest worry is sleeping cells of LeT in India. I suspect they will strike again. They are now out of control. Pakistan, I believe, has no control over them. What will India do if attacked again? Will it wage a war against Pakistan? This is the question that has become a nightmare for the western governments.

India should understand that almost all the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, but US never attacked Saudi Arabia or Egypt or pointed finger on those countries. If India wants to save its country from such devastating attacks in future, it should seek cooperation from Pakistan. Whatever concessions Pakistan has given so far, are because of immense western pressure. India alone cannot pressurise Pakistan or even declare a war against it and win it.

What I have noticed after following news material and other media resources, these two nations are highly emotional. They hate each other in an emotional manner. Indian hatred is its extreme hights. I understand that they suffered immensely this time. Much more than what Pakistan suffered in war on terror.

Pakistan and India needs understanding, help and cooperation to root out violence. Let not a handful of terrorists hostage to great nations. If India goes on war with Pakistan, these LeT terrorist will launch such devastating attacks during the war, which I believe India would never want that to happen.

Last but not least, India cannot afford to mishandle the situation like Mumbai attacks in future. India will have no excuse, now you have enemy that is awaiting to strike you at india’s vulnerable locations. It will decide the time and degree of devastation at its own will.

Prepare yourself, get the help of western nations and Indian army alone cannot handle these determined suicidal terrorists.

Realistically speaking less than 200 dead is a VERY ‘lucky’ outcome as the terrorists could have killed a LOT more without these guys doing anything to stop them in all the mayhem.

Now coming to the commandos. The term “commando’s” here is a bit disingenuous. In India, the true commando units are the Indian Army’s Para Commando units and ‘Ghatak’ units. The Indian commando units use the TAVOR generally. These are true commando units like British Commandos, The forces that were employed to deal with the crisis in Mumbai were the Indian National Security Guards and the Indian Navy’s Marine Commandos . The National Security Guards are actually trained as a military assault force akin to the US Rangers rather than a SWAT team and the Marine commando’s are trained like the SBS. The former are generally tasked at body guard duties and other mundane ’security’ tasks in New Delhi ( the national capital, nearly 2000 miles from Mumbai). These National Security Guards are seldom called on to actually do the jobs they were trained for and thus their lack of preparedness and slow responses. They had to be pulled from their ’security guard’ duties and deployed to Mumbai to deal with the crisis with no planning or preparation. The Indian Marine Commando’s on the other hand do very well at raiding ships and blowing up beach heads but are not specifically trained for urban combat and hostage rescue. For most of those guys, Mumbai was probably their first real experience in hostage rescue operations because they are a military unit that specialized in sea assaults, combat diving, exfiltration and intelligence operations.

In India between the police units capable of busting mob dens and the Army there is no real security force inbetween to deal with hostage rescue and civilian violent crimes of this scale like the west has. The biggest law and order situations to arise in Indian cities is usually riots and those are controlled with various state and federal riot control police that are actually pretty good. Now as for corruption, bribery etc, the National Security Guards or the Marine Commando’s are not victims of those problems as these are not ‘cushy’ government jobs that are meant for easy living. They do however suffer from lack of adequate and proper equipment, a lack of adequate intelligence. They lack of training for a LOT of what they are asked to do- which is quite different from what they are actually trained for in the first place. Add to this intelligence and logistics problems where these “commandos” didnt even have plans of the hotels they were entering or have the proper equipment to deal with the crisis.

In India, the way it works is, equipment is highly valued and usually stored with the military (which is always in short supply as they cant possibly equip their 1 million odd force levels). Any unit needing these “special equipment” like NVG/thermal sensors/GPS devices/ nerve gas etc would need to requisition these from the military. So units are equipped only with their basic armament and armor and usually have to be prep’d for operations in advance, these kind of on the fly operations are mostly a gamble for them.

In reality these kind of violent terrorism that was witnessed in Mumbai is basically quite new to India proper (it happens a LOT in Kashmir). The usual modes of terrorism in India’s cities are serial bomb blasts where a SWAT like force would not have made a difference. Also add to this, the National Security Guards (NSG) who were employed in Mumbai were actually trained by the Indian Army which doesnt specialize in the kind of urban warfare that takes place in the West. In Kashmir, where terrorists hold up inside residences after committing acts of terrorism they dont kill the civilians inside since the believe that they are fighting for the people of Kashmir aka muslims. The military there usually just blows the entire residence up or pepper them with bullets than conducting any “hostage rescue” mission. In Mumbai it was quite different. Add to this the fact that Mumbai is more densely populated than any Western city and much more chaotic, effective and continuous police enforcement is not feasible, no matter who does it or how many men they employ or how well they are trained.

So, while you guys are right about the response being lack luster and lethargic, the root problem is not incompetence but rather bureaucracy, apathy and a reactive pacifist attitude.

AND WAT SORT OF AN IDIOT CLAIMS THAT AN MP5 IS MORE DEADELY THAN AN AK47

DO INDIAN COMMONDS KNOW ANY THING ABOUT WEAPONS

ak47 is far more deadely than an mp5

By the way, if Pakistan can develop this weapon and train its commandos on the same, India should not have difficulty in obtaining the similar weapon from Israel. I guess after Israel, it is Pakistan and China that have developed the same weapon. Pakistani POF Eye is formidable gun. I learned its detail on Internet coverage of Ideas 2008, expo organized in Karachi. It is clone of Israeli corner shot. Chinese weapon is little different than both of them.

For those who doesn’t have any idea about Indian special forces, kindly read the following links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIJWS
http://www.nsg.gov.in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARCOS_(India)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com

I agree with Joseph that Indian commandos need to be trained by trained by US, UK or Israeli commandos for close quarter battle.

Indian commandos need to have training from their US, UK or Israeli counterparts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindad_SS2

Pindad Website.
http://www.pindad.com/listpro800.php?bahasa=2&kdin=10&bahasa=2&col=339933

and, on top of everything else, even if they were only armed with pistols, they shouldve had enough training to take out all of the terrorists…

see some of the images at:
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/11/mumbai_under_attack.html

A range of Heckler & Koch guns, the FN FAL are produced in India under licence since decades.

In a press conference a marine commando from the marcos team stated that they could had got the terrorists much earlier, but their objective was to minimise civilian casualties. This is often the difference between the police and criminals.

The guys with the .303s were local police sepoys, responsible for crowd control and keeping the roads clear. That’s all they are trained to do.

@Kristopher:
you state that you wouldn’t hesitate to take on a tango with a .303 Enfield and win at any range over 50 yards. Don’t bet on it!

At 300yards/ 275m, a .303 bullet’s trajectory has a drop of zero and energy of 1448 lb/ft. At that distance a 9mm will likely hit the dust, while a 65 year old bolt action 303 Enfield will blow you away.

And win at any range over 50 yards.

This was a training failure. The people in charge need to fall on their swords.

Indian police have recovered drugs from the dead terrorists. Seems like most of the terrorists had used large amounts of anabolic stereoids and taken cocaine as well. The Stereoids will give them a physical edge (some of the terrosist were reported to be suprisingly muscular) and the cocaine was used to combat sleepiness and keep on fighting even if wounded.

Seems like they were quite well prepared.

what might have mattered a lot more was communication and night fighting equipment. From reports i’ve read the terrorists had way better communication equipment. Some of the indian spec forces only had a few old walkie talkies and One..only one Night vision goggle to share between them.

There was a battle where over 250 Taliban fought 40 Marines Guess who won? The Marines.

By its nature gun fights are unfair. What you do in the fight that matter. Police cannot run like cowards. The terrorist were able to kill more innocent people because they knew they will go unopposed. The Indian police mentality must be the first thing that needs to be fix.

There are reports of cops in the Victoria Terminus being too scared to fire or even chase after the Terrorists. Despicable.

Indian’s cops and military should be shamed of themselves. They should shut-up and place blame where it belongs. Fix the real problems, instead of whining about false ones.

It reminded me of those pirate raids on small unsuspecting, unprepared coastal villages that were relatively common during the golden age of piracy. Only they were a small group of men, who arrived in a small inflatable boat, carrying small arms, and attacked one of the biggest cities in the world!

1. Everyone’s gotten used to bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi.
2. Police forces still carry equipment from WWII (not that old but the factories all make replicas)
3. Even after years of dealing with the mob and terrorism, police hierarchy is simply not equipped to deal with these kinds of threats.
4. Private citizens can’t import modern guns, make do with homemade and unreliable pistols.
5. No intelligence on the ground and lack of inter-agency coordination.
6. Corruption plays a part as well.
Pretty much the same reasons that led to 9/11 and that lead to general police incompetence in any american city, except here the police vans don’t have kevlar lining in their doors and ambulances are cramped 10 year old suvs converted for private use. All these factors (and more) led to a domino effect which resulted in a days long siege where it would’ve ended in a matter of an evening in America.
You know there’s something wrong when police are setting up cordons with bungee cords. How do you expect them to contain these attackers on the move? Senior officers were killed within the early hours leading to even more chaos on the ground. The joker couldn’t have schemed it better. (And he’s the ultimate schemer of them all, despite all appearances and catchphrases).
Horrible analogy, but this was Heat turned into “The Kingdom”.