MP5 is more deadly than AK says Indian Commando

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The Indian National Security Guard (NSG) have stooped pretty low. They are claiming part of the reason the Mumbai terror attacks were so deadly was because the terrorists were carrying MP5s and the NSG Commandos only had AK-47s. DNA India reports:

The MP5 is far superior to the AK47 and is only used by the security forces of various countries. This led the NSG to believe that the terrorists were more heavily armed than they had thought. But the mystery was solved when they realised that the terrorists had seized Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan’s weapon after killing him. The NSG feel that the acquisition of this weapon had extended their resistance by a few hours. This is also an indication, said a senior officer, that the terrorists were trained in the use of this sophisticated weapon as well.

Overall, the HK MP5 is the weapon of choice for most European forces and the US. More notable users include the United States’s Navy SEAL, the German GSG9 group and the British SAS. It is also used by civil protection forces such as police and special SWAT team units.

The thought that these “special forces” were scared off by 9mm submachine guns when they were armed with 7.62x39mm rifles is a joke. Chances are they also had 7.62mm NATO G3s FALs on hand as well.

Infantry Weapons.Pdf (Page 2 Of 9)
Pakistan Ordnance Factories MP5

The fact that the terrorists were carrying MP5s is likely to have embarrassed Pakistan and fueled India’s rage. I would put money on the fact that those MP5s were manufactured by POF, the Pakistan government owned small arms and ammunition manufacturer. I coincidentally mentioned that POF produces licensed MP5 yesterday.

Hat Tip: MP.net


Steve Johnson

Founder and Dictator-In-Chief of TFB. A passionate gun owner, a shooting enthusiast and totally tacti-uncool. Favorite first date location: any gun range. Steve can be contacted here.


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  • jdun1911

    What an embarrassment for the Indian’s Special Force and Law Enforcement. They got pushed around like a bunch of chump.

    From what I read they were more worry about saving their hide then going after the terrorists. The so called Indian’s Commando “Black Cat” made one of the lamest excuse ever on TV. They said they could have taken out a bunch of terrorists at the hotel but decided not too because of fear of hitting civilians. The problem with the statement is all the civilians that were still alive lock themselves in their rooms. They let those terrorists escaped to kill again.

    When you have a situation where the terrorists is killing anyone that moves. You have to go in, find them, engage them, kill them. You can’t let them escape which is the worst thing that can happen and that’s what the Indian’s Commando did.

    I think we can agree that good reporting is dead. So before the HK game kiddie trying to defend the MP5 let me point out something. The MP5 was created in the 60s. It is not sophisticated. It is made out of cheap sheet metal. US Special Force stop using the MP5 in the lat 90s. US Law Enforcement stop using the MP5 shortly after that. The sub-gun is more or less obsolete and replaced by short barrel rifles like the M4.

    What the Indian’s Special Operation Group, Law Enforcement, and Anti-terrorist units should do is shut up and admit there were mistakes instead of making excuses.

    • aryan99

      jdun1911

      you should read more. US law enforcement and military units still use mp5s because they dont trust the 5.56mm round that much. aint got much stopping power. isnt that why new 6.5 and 6.8mm rounds are coming into play these days?
      and do you even know anything about weapons? let alone mp5 :)
      because you sound pretty stupid when talking about them.

      now, about Indian special forces, we are one of the best in the world. and boy, none of those terrorists escaped. all except one were killed. the captured one is still here. he was useful to expose the roots of the attack. a policeman while recieving almost a full m43 rounds, threw himself upon a terrorist and kept him down so that he can be taken alive.
      so, from wherever you are, jdun 1911, i dont think you people have the balls enough to do anything like that.

      we couldnt storm the hotels under adrenaline cos this isnt call of duty game. those hostages were our brothers, sisters and guests from other nations( we do consider guests as equal to god. ask the foriegn survivors from 26/11 and they will tell you legends about the Taj hotel employess) and had we did something random, not one would be alive. so if you knew a thing about close quarter combing operation under a hostage situation in an civilian filled urban environment, you would have shut up already. please keep your damn mouth shut and stop embarassing yourself.

    • sumit sawe

      Yeah sure keyboard hero, how many terrorists have you engaged? Go drop your pants and play with yourself homo.

  • http://existingthing.blogspot.com existingthing

    We all know what it means when you blame the gun.

    • sumit sawe

      How would you know limp dix k u ever fired in anger?

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

    Those cops could have been using bolt action .303 Enfield rifles (some police/militia forces in India are still issued the Enfield) and I still would not think that would be any excuse.

  • http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com//index.htm Sven Ortmann

    Ridiculous. I recall photos of Indian troops with FAL clones – albeit some had guns that looked like Garands or bold action rifles as well.

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

    Sven, actually that rings a bell, the Indians use the FAL, not G3, as their 7.62mm NATO auto-loader. I was thinking of Pakistan.

  • gummywormz

    i saw a picture of one of the terrorists the day of the shooting and he had a aks-47.
    either way they both had the ability to fling bullets at each other.

  • bill-tb

    The only thing I can figure is they must think we are all Obama voters now.

    I saw Indian troops with plenty of serviceable weapons, they just didn’t seem to be being used. IN a pinch, anything will do. An FAL would work for me …

  • jdun1911

    India use the FAL, UK version so it is in inch. It is being replaced by INSAS 5.56 which is an AK clone with a gas regulator.

    As far as I know from my Jane’s Infantry Weapons book, the Indian military has MP5 in their inventory.

  • mattling

    Indian police constables usually carry either .303 Enfields or WWII Sten guns. Police officers usually carry a semi-automatic pistol, 9mm or .45 revolvers/pistols. Some policemen carry army made INSAS rifles or Ishapore Arsenal FALs strictly limited to semi-automatic fire. I’ve seen security guards for VIPs carrying Kalashnikovs here and there.
    Judging by the pictures and videos from the past week, the police forces were heavily outgunned and outmaneuvered. It was not until the early hours of the morning that I saw actual army forces carrying fully automatic rifles, not counting the men guarding the tv-hogging politicians. It was not until Thursday afternoon that I saw someone who marginally resembled a SWAT officer carrying MP5s and SG551s, one PSG1 and INSAS rifles with Dragunov scopes on them.
    The main reason for this long siege is that the defender’s response was extremely slow. The NSG guys were all flown in from New Delhi where they are usually kept as eye candy for politicians who like to look important.

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

    mattling, are you from that part of the World? Do you know why a city the size (13 million people) was so undefended?

    • sumit sawe

      Because the city has leaders and politicians who are educated to year 10 and have backgrounds like vegetable vendor, smuggler etc. They have no tactical awareness or knowledge or even care.

  • jdun1911

    This wasn’t the first attack on Mumbai. The last one I believe was in 2006 and they killed over 300 people. So I don’t understand why they are so under armed and unprepared.

  • mattling

    Numerous reasons:

    1. Everyone’s gotten used to bomb blasts in Mumbai and Delhi.
    2. Police forces still carry equipment from WWII (not that old but the factories all make replicas)
    3. Even after years of dealing with the mob and terrorism, police hierarchy is simply not equipped to deal with these kinds of threats.
    4. Private citizens can’t import modern guns, make do with homemade and unreliable pistols.
    5. No intelligence on the ground and lack of inter-agency coordination.
    6. Corruption plays a part as well.
    Pretty much the same reasons that led to 9/11 and that lead to general police incompetence in any american city, except here the police vans don’t have kevlar lining in their doors and ambulances are cramped 10 year old suvs converted for private use. All these factors (and more) led to a domino effect which resulted in a days long siege where it would’ve ended in a matter of an evening in America.
    You know there’s something wrong when police are setting up cordons with bungee cords. How do you expect them to contain these attackers on the move? Senior officers were killed within the early hours leading to even more chaos on the ground. The joker couldn’t have schemed it better. (And he’s the ultimate schemer of them all, despite all appearances and catchphrases).
    Horrible analogy, but this was Heat turned into “The Kingdom”.

  • mattling

    Another horrible analogy but the scene in the dark knight where wuertz throws a napkin at a picture of lincoln, bigfoot and elvis under the heading Batman suspects could be replaced with india’s anti-terrorism strategy. It’s always been reactionary. The most scary picture i saw was of the two terrorists approaching a train station exit that had metal detectors. You may be able to nab some psycho or mobster who had a concealed carry pistol on him with those, but terrorists don’t let metal detectors stop them and that’s why they won in every possible way they wanted to. They made the government look bad and embarassed the entire nation and probably scared off foreigners for a few years.

  • mattling

    Most attacks in India up to this date have been bomb blasts where people simply leave IEDs in public places and walk away. Last time an attack of this magnitude happened was on the Indian parliament in december of 2001 where they simply rammed a car through the front gates and tried to storm the chambers.
    I visited the parliament building in new delhi in 2007 and nowadays the gates are much heavier, they have metal plates embedded in the ground near every vehicle entry/exit that can be raised in case of an attack and there are 2 .50 cal machine gunners on post right in front just in case. But that’s just one government building.

  • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

    mattling, you joker analogy is pretty good. I was amazed at those photos of the terrorists walking around with rifles in plain sight, apparently not worried about the police or army or whoever is supposed to respond to these kind of attacks.

    It reminded me of those pirate raids on small unsuspecting, unprepared coastal villages that were relatively common during the golden age of piracy. Only they were a small group of men, who arrived in a small inflatable boat, carrying small arms, and attacked one of the biggest cities in the world!

  • http://thebronzeblog.blogspot.com/ thebronze

    Most of the Terrorists had AK’s and apparently got the MP-5’s from the cops they killed.

    There are reports of cops in the Victoria Terminus being too scared to fire or even chase after the Terrorists. Despicable.

    Indian’s cops and military should be shamed of themselves. They should shut-up and place blame where it belongs. Fix the real problems, instead of whining about false ones.

  • jdun1911

    Being outgunned isn’t an excuse. The North Hollywood shootout, the police was outgunned. The Miami Shootout the FBI agents was outgunned. In both cases the police did not let the heavily armed criminals escape. They did whatever it took to get them off the street including sacrificing their lives.

    There was a battle where over 250 Taliban fought 40 Marines Guess who won? The Marines.

    By its nature gun fights are unfair. What you do in the fight that matter. Police cannot run like cowards. The terrorist were able to kill more innocent people because they knew they will go unopposed. The Indian police mentality must be the first thing that needs to be fix.

  • http://www.1jma.dk Peter

    The MP5 is a decent gun, Danish special forces still uses it, but this still have to be one of the most sorry A** appoligies ever.

    what might have mattered a lot more was communication and night fighting equipment. From reports i’ve read the terrorists had way better communication equipment. Some of the indian spec forces only had a few old walkie talkies and One..only one Night vision goggle to share between them.

  • http://www.1jma.dk Peter

    Another ting that might have mattered more:

    Indian police have recovered drugs from the dead terrorists. Seems like most of the terrorists had used large amounts of anabolic stereoids and taken cocaine as well. The Stereoids will give them a physical edge (some of the terrosist were reported to be suprisingly muscular) and the cocaine was used to combat sleepiness and keep on fighting even if wounded.

    Seems like they were quite well prepared.

  • jesse

    MP5s have better sights, but that’s just pathetic.

  • http://kbarrett.cotse.net/idiot Kristopher

    I wouldn’t hesitate to take on a tango with a .303 Enfield.

    And win at any range over 50 yards.

    This was a training failure. The people in charge need to fall on their swords.

  • http://drstrangegun.blogspot.com DrStrangegun

    I wonder if this Indian commando understands what I mean when, pardon my French, I call him chicken scat (you know what I mean, but I ain’t typing it out in another’s blog.)

  • / p’tje

    I even saw the Commandos who landed on the Jewish center wear mp5s

  • Objective

    What a load of crap. Look at the images. The Indian forces were using a variety of weapons to include versions of Heckler & Koch’s MP5 such as the MP5KA4 and the MP5KA5. Those that stormed the hotels and the Nariman building had weapons with iR sights.

    see some of the images at:
    http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/11/mumbai_under_attack.html

    A range of Heckler & Koch guns, the FN FAL are produced in India under licence since decades.

    In a press conference a marine commando from the marcos team stated that they could had got the terrorists much earlier, but their objective was to minimise civilian casualties. This is often the difference between the police and criminals.

    The guys with the .303s were local police sepoys, responsible for crowd control and keeping the roads clear. That’s all they are trained to do.

    @Kristopher:
    you state that you wouldn’t hesitate to take on a tango with a .303 Enfield and win at any range over 50 yards. Don’t bet on it!

    At 300yards/ 275m, a .303 bullet’s trajectory has a drop of zero and energy of 1448 lb/ft. At that distance a 9mm will likely hit the dust, while a 65 year old bolt action 303 Enfield will blow you away.

  • Okami-San

    Well, this is just all really ridiculous in my opinon. first off, even if the police were armed with only AK’s, an th terrorist’s with only MP-5’s, that would give the police the advantage- the MP-5 fires a pistol round, which most body armor can absorb…

    and, on top of everything else, even if they were only armed with pistols, they shouldve had enough training to take out all of the terrorists…

    • sumit sawe

      ” they shouldve had enough training to take out all of the terrorists” that line alone shows you’re a moron with no weapons experience.

  • David Mc

    It all boils down to PPP…P*ss Poor Planning. Proficient tactical units, both military and civilian, have planned and trained for every conceivable contingency. I won’t get into command, control, and communications, another issue that needs to be addressed by Indian authorities. But, aside from the need to employ weapons that can defeat most body armor, were Indian forces better trained and prepared, they could have taken these thugs out with Remington 870’s using rifled slugs. I don’t think there’s any lack of courage in the Indian Army. At this point, it’s a matter of being better prepared and I think terrorism now has the full attention of India’s government.

    • sumit sawe

      Hang on captain playstation. The thugs you refer to were also highly trained, motivated individuals on a suicide mission.
      They received intensive training and were well eequipped.
      Actual combat involves many parameters, something US troops learned the hard way in Afghanistan.

  • Red

    I think if The India Military doesn’t have enough cash to buy a better firearm they should buy the SS2 Attack Rifle from Indonesia. According the manufacturer Pindad, The SS2 Attack Riffle is cheaper than AK47 and it have the same quality with the M4.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindad_SS2

    Pindad Website.
    http://www.pindad.com/listpro800.php?bahasa=2&kdin=10&bahasa=2&col=339933

  • Joseph Ronald

    After watching the whole coverage of Mumbai episode, I got a very low perception of Indian commandos. I guess they should learn from their enemies, Pakistani commandos whose commandos have successfully countered terrorists a number of times.

    Indian commandos need to have training from their US, UK or Israeli counterparts.

  • David Brown

    I suggest Indian commandos need training. This bloodbath could have been considerably reduced if Indian commandos had done good close quarter battle training.

    I agree with Joseph that Indian commandos need to be trained by trained by US, UK or Israeli commandos for close quarter battle.

  • Sam

    The whole story is ridiculous. Indian special forces has years of experience dealing with terrorists. It has crushed terrorism in Punjab and now dealing very effectively in Kashmir. In Mumbai the situation was way too difficult and complex for the special forces. They were not aware on the exact number of hostages, the exact number of militants and above all that a lot of rooms inside the hotel was locked from inside. They were doing room by room search, so it took longer time for the entire operation. The first priority for them was the safety of hostages. They went all out against the militants only when the ensured that no other hostages are there. Each special forces has there own way of operation tactics.

    For those who doesn’t have any idea about Indian special forces, kindly read the following links.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIJWS
    http://www.nsg.gov.in
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARCOS_(India)
    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com

  • David Brown

    Indian armed forces though well trained and disciplined, direly need closed quarter battle training. They have good ties with Israel. Should invite Israeli trainers for such training. Perhaps they are the world’s best commandos to tackle such situation. Israeli gun designers have invented corner shot. If Indian commandos had these gun, with good training, they could have finished this drama in few hours.

    By the way, if Pakistan can develop this weapon and train its commandos on the same, India should not have difficulty in obtaining the similar weapon from Israel. I guess after Israel, it is Pakistan and China that have developed the same weapon. Pakistani POF Eye is formidable gun. I learned its detail on Internet coverage of Ideas 2008, expo organized in Karachi. It is clone of Israeli corner shot. Chinese weapon is little different than both of them.

    • sumit sawe

      You’re talking rubbish, the commandos went in and did their job. With 1 casualty. That’s a good job.
      Whats your experience to comment on their job? PlayStation champion of the year? An idiot like you thinks a firefight is like a video game, it’s not moron.

  • ali

    the indian commandos were carrying MP5 and ak47 and INSAS
    not a single terrorists seen in the videos were carrying mp5
    all were carrying ak47s

    AND WAT SORT OF AN IDIOT CLAIMS THAT AN MP5 IS MORE DEADELY THAN AN AK47

    DO INDIAN COMMONDS KNOW ANY THING ABOUT WEAPONS

    ak47 is far more deadely than an mp5

  • tarkan

    Hostage rescue is one thing,firepower and impact or fire superiority is smt else,mp5 wrote the book on precision and reliability in urban enviroment.Ask nobody but go to closest professional or try field strip mp5.

  • Erde

    I am Indian citizen who has lived in the US now and then for nearly 10 years now and while a lot of you have all the guns specs right, a LOT of you have the entire ‘situation’ wrong. When you ask why was Mumbai so poorly defended. The answer quite simply is, it never needed much defending, not the kind that would have stopped something like this anyway. Mumbai is a very very dense city and add to that its chaotic. Indian police generally do not carry fire arms unless they are issued for some reason like crowd control or breaking up riots or assaulting a mob den. Most of the “constabulary” isnt trained for gun-fights and such. The Indian police follows the traditions of British police systems in the early 20th Century where the Constable is merely a tool of deterrence and intimidation rather than an enforcer.

    Now coming to the commandos. The term “commando’s” here is a bit disingenuous. In India, the true commando units are the Indian Army’s Para Commando units and ‘Ghatak’ units. The Indian commando units use the TAVOR generally. These are true commando units like British Commandos, The forces that were employed to deal with the crisis in Mumbai were the Indian National Security Guards and the Indian Navy’s Marine Commandos . The National Security Guards are actually trained as a military assault force akin to the US Rangers rather than a SWAT team and the Marine commando’s are trained like the SBS. The former are generally tasked at body guard duties and other mundane ‘security’ tasks in New Delhi ( the national capital, nearly 2000 miles from Mumbai). These National Security Guards are seldom called on to actually do the jobs they were trained for and thus their lack of preparedness and slow responses. They had to be pulled from their ‘security guard’ duties and deployed to Mumbai to deal with the crisis with no planning or preparation. The Indian Marine Commando’s on the other hand do very well at raiding ships and blowing up beach heads but are not specifically trained for urban combat and hostage rescue. For most of those guys, Mumbai was probably their first real experience in hostage rescue operations because they are a military unit that specialized in sea assaults, combat diving, exfiltration and intelligence operations.

    In India between the police units capable of busting mob dens and the Army there is no real security force inbetween to deal with hostage rescue and civilian violent crimes of this scale like the west has. The biggest law and order situations to arise in Indian cities is usually riots and those are controlled with various state and federal riot control police that are actually pretty good. Now as for corruption, bribery etc, the National Security Guards or the Marine Commando’s are not victims of those problems as these are not ‘cushy’ government jobs that are meant for easy living. They do however suffer from lack of adequate and proper equipment, a lack of adequate intelligence. They lack of training for a LOT of what they are asked to do- which is quite different from what they are actually trained for in the first place. Add to this intelligence and logistics problems where these “commandos” didnt even have plans of the hotels they were entering or have the proper equipment to deal with the crisis.

    In India, the way it works is, equipment is highly valued and usually stored with the military (which is always in short supply as they cant possibly equip their 1 million odd force levels). Any unit needing these “special equipment” like NVG/thermal sensors/GPS devices/ nerve gas etc would need to requisition these from the military. So units are equipped only with their basic armament and armor and usually have to be prep’d for operations in advance, these kind of on the fly operations are mostly a gamble for them.

    In reality these kind of violent terrorism that was witnessed in Mumbai is basically quite new to India proper (it happens a LOT in Kashmir). The usual modes of terrorism in India’s cities are serial bomb blasts where a SWAT like force would not have made a difference. Also add to this, the National Security Guards (NSG) who were employed in Mumbai were actually trained by the Indian Army which doesnt specialize in the kind of urban warfare that takes place in the West. In Kashmir, where terrorists hold up inside residences after committing acts of terrorism they dont kill the civilians inside since the believe that they are fighting for the people of Kashmir aka muslims. The military there usually just blows the entire residence up or pepper them with bullets than conducting any “hostage rescue” mission. In Mumbai it was quite different. Add to this the fact that Mumbai is more densely populated than any Western city and much more chaotic, effective and continuous police enforcement is not feasible, no matter who does it or how many men they employ or how well they are trained.

    So, while you guys are right about the response being lack luster and lethargic, the root problem is not incompetence but rather bureaucracy, apathy and a reactive pacifist attitude.

  • Erde

    Oh and I forgot to mention, the claim that should the US or SAS or Israeli Special ops have been deployed they could have done better is a very dubious claim. Even though CNN etc showed a few google maps and videos of the Taj and Oberoi hotel. Those buildings are huge! The Taj has over 800 rooms, some portions of the hotel on fire and without power, booby traps on dead bodies, traps etc. Even if the SAS or Israeli commando’s did go in, they wouldnt have had a much better outcome.

    Realistically speaking less than 200 dead is a VERY ‘lucky’ outcome as the terrorists could have killed a LOT more without these guys doing anything to stop them in all the mayhem.

  • David Brown

    A very good assessment of the situation by Erde. I still hold my point of view that Indian commandos need training for fighting such determined attackers. These guys were formidably trained, no less than deadly commandos. To take on such terrorists, India need training from SAS or IDF. There is no doubt about Indian commandos’ capability, yet they need training for tackling such incidents.

    Should such events occur in future, Indian law enforcement agencies will have no excuse for the failure. After watching the whole coverage, I got the impression that Indian media and government was putting blame on Pakistan, which is itself caught in deadly terrorist activities. If LeT or any other group was involved in this incident, there definitely are more sleeping cells in India.

    There is lot of India-Pakistan controversy going on. I see no point in this blame game. I am sure Pakistani government is not involved, directly or indirectly, in these attacks. I suggest Indian leadership should show some restraint, as another such event will lead this great country to a devastating war, a war where no one will be the winner.

    As a westerner, the thing that shudders me is the spectre of war between these two great nations. My greatest worry is sleeping cells of LeT in India. I suspect they will strike again. They are now out of control. Pakistan, I believe, has no control over them. What will India do if attacked again? Will it wage a war against Pakistan? This is the question that has become a nightmare for the western governments.

    India should understand that almost all the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, but US never attacked Saudi Arabia or Egypt or pointed finger on those countries. If India wants to save its country from such devastating attacks in future, it should seek cooperation from Pakistan. Whatever concessions Pakistan has given so far, are because of immense western pressure. India alone cannot pressurise Pakistan or even declare a war against it and win it.

    What I have noticed after following news material and other media resources, these two nations are highly emotional. They hate each other in an emotional manner. Indian hatred is its extreme hights. I understand that they suffered immensely this time. Much more than what Pakistan suffered in war on terror.

    Pakistan and India needs understanding, help and cooperation to root out violence. Let not a handful of terrorists hostage to great nations. If India goes on war with Pakistan, these LeT terrorist will launch such devastating attacks during the war, which I believe India would never want that to happen.

    Last but not least, India cannot afford to mishandle the situation like Mumbai attacks in future. India will have no excuse, now you have enemy that is awaiting to strike you at india’s vulnerable locations. It will decide the time and degree of devastation at its own will.

    Prepare yourself, get the help of western nations and Indian army alone cannot handle these determined suicidal terrorists.

  • Erde

    David,

    The assertion that the Pakistani government doesnt have anything to do with terrorism in South Asia is only true if you define the Pakistani government as “Asif Al Zardari” . Sure, he has no idea who these people are and what was going on. But if you were to talk about a government as in the traditional sense like Pakistani military, intelligence agencies, civil bodies and other institutions, you would be completely wrong.

    The CIA indicated the direct complicity of ISI and other Pakistani agencies in terrorist attacks across Afghanistan, India, Iraq and even the West in the 90s itself. Several Department of State officials and high ranking national security ofiicials in the US are aware that Pakistan’s state sponsored bodies like its intelligence agency and its military agency are directly responsible for aiding and training many of these terrorist groups directly. If you consider, a country’s military and intelligence agencies to be part of its government than your earlier assertion that Pakistan’s government has no role in it is misplaced.

    To the casual Western observer, the Indian propensity to blame Pakistan may seem premature and emotional but when 99 out of a 100 times in the past investigations have led to groups in Pakistan supported by Pakistani intelligence and military agents, its pretty easy to draw conclusions based on a glance alone. That may be a fault but that is the natural response to
    a well known pattern of incidents. It would be the same as blaming insurgents for any new IED explosions in Iraq prior to any investigation as it is a pattern that we all have come to know . Same is the case with suicide bombings in Israel.

    So, when you have a government spokesman that pleads ignorance and pledges co-operation on one hand and at the same time you have the government’s agencies supplying terrorist with GPS devices, there really isnt much faith to go around. What most of the West doesnt understand is that civilian government in Pakistan is merely a token government. The actions of its military and intelligence services and their agendas are all their own. The problem of pakistan based terrorists has not started with Mumbai or even begun since 9/11. It is part of a concerted Islamist ideology supported by all sections of Pakistan’s various military, intelligence and civil bodies to wage this kind of campaign of terror against India, the US, the West and Israel. To the average Indian, Pakistan is like a diseases infested sore that the world wont treat. let India treat and wont put out of its misery but is left alone only to spread its sickness to other’s and fester.

    The only reason India hasnt responded earlier and with an iron hand is because in India quite the opposite of Pakistan, the central political authority governs everything. Thus, matters of national security and intelligence fall victim to political considerations. Cracking down hard on sleeper cells would mean investigating a large percentage of India’s muslim population which would alienate them as potential voters. On the other hand, in-action leads to tragedies like Mumbai. In the middle, the Indian citizenry is caught in a balance between the considerations of minority liberties and overall national security imperatives. Sooner or latter should these terrorist activities continue and affect more Indian lives, the West can do nothing but witness an all out nuclear war that will end Pakistan and hurt millions of India badly. Hence. both the US and other Western governments pressuring Pakistan’s government to act on its internal problems.

    To say the pakistani’s have suffered here too is not true. Even a cursory look at world history would show that Paksitan was created to be a muslims state. A state that went from moderately islmaic to fundamentally so. Modern Islamic terrorism was conceived, and nurtured in Pakistan to help achieve their international goals. Now, having lost control of their little “frankenstein” they play the victim- hapless and in need of protection! Do we pity those who get burnt playing with fire ? Or do we take it that they are getting their just rewards ?

  • andy

    1. The British SBS and SAS.

    2. Israel

    3. French Foriegn Legion.

    4. National Security Guards (N.S.G.) INDIA – known as black cat commando,most toughest training, Morning starts with 10 km warm up daily & 32 km long run once a week,Must have shooting accuracy of 98 %,Must Fire 200+ rounds/day .Never ending courses CIJWS(counter insurgency & jungle warfare only in the world) School after that Medium attitude school & at last high school at 22000 feet(only in the world).101 operation no failure 1 casualty.

    The USA have the greatest Firepower but by no means do we have the greatest Soldiers. This is a Well known Fact. (Not known by many Americans).
    Actually the French Foreign Legion are shock troops and not really special forces at all. There are many different Israeli (not israil) SMU’s and they all do different things,so you would have to be more specific.As for it being a “well known fact” that the U.S doesn’t have the greatest soldiers,the U.S Special Forces trains the Indian NSG. There is also no way to prove who is the toughest or smartest soldier in the world. Firing ,in itself,200 rounds a day is no accomplishment and I doubt the Indian army has the budget to afford this.Please do not post answers on a topic if you do not know what you are talking about.

    Typicall american. Insulted when told USA have by no means the best trained troops even in the western world let alone the whole world. our troops are undertrained, un experienced bafoons with huge firepower. They shoot at and bomb our own allies and eachother. And it does matter how many shots your firing when tryin to keep a 98% shooting acuraccy fool, the more the harder it is. And it is very obvious that the SAS of the british special forces would just tear any country a new hole, including our powerfull one. Our troops would in no way be able to hande the SAS or other special forces even with the worlds greatest firepower. Stop watching hollywood movies and stop looking at military budgets and start looking at the soldiers that actually fight. Weve won just over 50% of our wars! thats pathetic…the british have been fighting from the beggining of time and have an 85% war record! Our soldiers arent in the same class.

    It just so happens that India’s Special Forces is one of the best in the world right now right up there with the SAS .Indian MARCOS is the best amphibious assault division( probably even better than US Navy Seals) even capable of high altitude combat and paratrooping.The reason we don’t hear much about them is because they maintain a shroud of secrecy. Even their wives don’t know if they are in the MARCOS. The operation success rate of the Indian special Forces is enviable

    I’d like to know from where you got the info that the US special forces trains NSG commandos?.. And yeah the Us has probably the most fire power..but just look at the operation success rates and you’ll get the picture. The SAS and Indian Special Forces has enviable success rate. Look out for the Indian MARCOS(Marine Commandos) are one of the best amphibious assault units in the world(may be even better than or at par with the Navy Seals)

    ******************************************* reply for ( after 4th nos) quote

    hahaaaaa :-) NSG trained from USA soldiers gud keep it u day dreamer hahaaa

    But i thought u often came here to learn ABCD of counter insurgency & jungle warfare i have watched 1000 of pic CIJWS ,HIGH ALTITUDE SCHOOL, are ur desirable schools

    http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1982&page=2 check this

    U can find google fulll of such images

    I came to know in past that u apply for a joint exercise with NSG but NSG rejected it (2007) haahaa because they just don’t need joint excercise they are black cat as they shown in Mumbai rescued 200+ peoples

    my cousin is a NSG (in Special Rangers Group commando) not in striking group so i definetly hav knowledge abt it

    anyone can excercise with MARCOS ,Garud,Ghatak ,SFF or if come with luck then with Indian Para commando 9th bat( http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Para.html.) but u can’t with NSG

    They have their own world their own tacties ,their own technics ,diffrent successful stratergies So they don’t like to share it with other forces

    ************* about budget well sir Glad to tell u that India’s Spend per day on Siachen Galacier (highest battlefield in the world) is about $ 1.5 + to 2 million dollar / day (India able to afford this)

    So i dont think spending 200 -200 bullets by elite commandos is a problems

    after all this is for NatIon

    NSG commandos are super human This is Human Engg at its best they trained at 22000 feet,-30c to 54’c (In Rajayastan)

    once UK.s SF (unknown) come here to joint excercice with para 9 th batallion

    at the 22000 feet (high school) ,intially they were 80 & when process strat ( 1st stay at 10000 feet for 1 week ,after 15000 for 4days,after 19000 for 1week after 22000 for 3 days) beleive me or not only 5 declared as physically fit & complete join excercise with Para.

    Para is grand child of NSG So hope u get some clue abt NSG abilities :-)

    The USA have the greatest Firepower but by no means do we have the greatest Soldiers. This is a Well known Fact. (Not known by many Americans).
    Operation Ashwamedh :
    All that is visible is a blur of black, the glint of metal and then two muffled cracks – shots from silencer-fitted machine pistols. The commandos of an elite counter-hijack squad of the National Security Guards (NSG), wearing menacing black hoods, have just stormed a Boeing-737, hijacked by the Hizbul Mujahideen at New Delhi’s Indira Gandhi International Airport, seconds after receiving the green signal from the Crisis Management Group.
    Fourteen men from a Quick Reaction Team of the NSG, armed with the H&K 9mm MP-5 sub-machine guns, Glock 17 or the Sig Sauer pistols and poison-tipped knives, split into pairs and enter the plane through seven different entrance points, the doors and the cockpit.
    The team takes the three hijackers by complete surprise. In fact the two patrolling the aisle are dead with soft-penetration, non-ricochetable ammunition in their heads even before they have time to react. And the third hijackers is disarmed in the cockpit by the No.1 team. Time taken for the entire operation; a mere 12 seconds.
    Training- For starters there is a 26-item, 780 metre obstacle course, with a qualifying time of 18 minutes. If a person completes the course in 25 minutes, he is deemed fit. The best do it in less than nine minutes. The obstacles have to do with heights, horizontal gaps and vertical scaling and are difficult to tackle in sequence. As if this is not enough, there’s a target shooting session at the end of the obstacle course meant to test the aspirants’ performance under severe stress and exhaustion.
    In the Combat Room Shoot, the combatant enters a dark room, adjusts to the darkness and engages the target with either a torch light or a compatible laser image intensifier – all within three seconds. And not just in darkness but under the strobe lights of a discotheque as well, which are some of the most difficult shots to take. “We train them to take only head shots. And two at a go – the double tap system. It’s to ensure neutralization of the target. In the close hostage-terrorist situations we face there is little scope for body shots,” says Colonel Dutta
    The men are also put through a battle inoculation program where they have to stand right next to the target while one of their partners shoots at it. “They have to become used to live bullets flying under their noses. Also the person shooting is conscious that if he misses by even a couple of inches the bullet is going to hit his partner.” says an instructor.
    The NSG is an elite force providing a second line of defence to the nation. They have played a pivotal role in safeguarding the unity of India and have commendably foiled attempts of anti-national elements to tear apart the social fabric of the country. They are like nukes. The ultimate back-up.
    i dont doubt India’s capability’s but you have to look at the sheer numbers u say wonder why japan didn’t move into India? maybe it had something to do with the 2.5 million man army? or the fact that people join the Indian army at 16. when americans still have 6 more years of school. there 219 million people fit for military service. thats half of the u.s. population. so they have alot more people to qualify with. also india is a poorer country many people serve to feed there family’s. i don’t doubt the Indian forces because they definitely have the money as a country and they are top 3 in almost every category including weapons production. but like you said they are fighting a different kind of war then Americans. and u say americans don care about life ur wrong americans care about american lives. why would we care about iraqis who we give billion in food and aid. and they turn around and drive a carbomb into a crowd killing one american and 60 iraqis they dont care about there own lives. so ur right we dont care about there lives why would we run into a building crowded with terrorist when we can blow it up from the safety of our bases?

    REP.
    :-)
    not 16 the average age to join Army as a Cadet in India is 18 year / after 12 th grade ,Applicant hav to clear NDA (National Defense Academy) examination & after 1 week rigorous interview .Then training process starts for next 3 year (Cadet pursue their Graduation side by side) & after that few join other specialise courses for advance Study or specialization So indirectly Cadet become a officer in the age of 21. but Non-officer rank has training time period of 1 year & other few month training
    .We support Americans but envading in another country is not correct . Bush forced America & Iraq in d war . Suppose we attack on Pak. & capture its territory then they will support our army, Never it will be another Iraq .& human life is human life
    It has same cost in America as well as in Uganda
    Yes we are poor although i am not belong to a poor family but i Recognize India as poor country because there is no proportionality here.There are few who wine n dine daily spend millions & few who work daily just for 2 time meal.
    Anyways
    I was surfing net & hav found a intersting Counter terrorism incident
    That was Waco Texax in 1993 this operation was a complete disaster 75 men burnt alive due to Polic Tear gas & 5-10 SF personnel killed unknown injured
    Kindly dont alter post let it go its not against any Nation /any SF the fact is all soldiers r Brave .

    I am’t angry because ur’t a Paki :-)
    Its not ur fault i know Gk of a American It Start with a America & end on America.
    So our forces are least tested in the world huh haaaaaa-haaaaaaaa my frds are laughing & i don’t know how to deal with —— like u Anyways writing some facts
    1} Tell me name of a country where Military operation (Counter terrorism operation) carried out on every morning (at least one operation)yes every morning 1st they Kill terrorists after take their Breakfast. :-)
    No idea ok wat can i expect from u check this http://tinyurl.com/5hd2s6& there some pics of US soldier too taking lesson from Indian Soldiers

    2} abt brave soldier —- :-) we redefined the term “Mountain Warfare “Military expert from all over the world said it is impossible but my Army didn’t think twice said Impossible is nothing no clue wat i m talkng abt- check this http://tinyurl.com/5orc2y i can tell u 1000000000*100000000 stories abt bravery in Indian Army but its not story telling boards
    If you hav some kind of Military knowledge then probably you know about
    “Patton tanks” that was your technology given to PAK in 1971 war.Whole tank regiment was f**** by Indian Army & IAF in Longewala in a single day known AS “SAGA OF LONGEWALA” 40 tank completely distroyed.Our men give supreme sacrifice That was a simple strategy every soldier had a ANTI-TANK mine & jump in front of Moving tanks. That’s what we are .DID ur army give dis type of supreme scarifies
    oooooooooh sorry forgot abt ur saber Jet hahaaa haahaaa scr*** by IAF brutally. cheers Americans were so angry they send their war ship to Indian Oceans.
    &&& in WW2 CHINESE * * * * by JAPS but wat u think why Japs unable to proceed in India ,Due to British? haha that was Indian Army they didn’t give a inch of the grounds to Japs

    there are many stories I can proudly tell u any time

    Ur army just know how to send signal to Cruise Missile & kill innocent people nothing else
    It needs something to carry out operation on their own. GUTS
    ************************Yes there is no doubt Black cats are best They rescued 300 people in 40 h & kill 12 terrorist

    I understand Americans don’t care abt human life’s they just think it must be complete soon so they can eat A s*** burger :-) perhaps they attack with Cruise missile to get rid of it ASAP haahahaaaaaaaaa:-)
    NSG rescued 300+ people wat else
    &&&&&&&& last question if our Army is not a expert in Counter insurgency then why American come here do they like Indian’s ——-

    In the annals of modern warfare, the 1971 war between India and Pakistan is regarded as a template of brilliance. Within 13 days, the Indian army routed Pakistan in one of the swiftest campaigns of the 20th century.
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98280&page=7

    Indian Side 120 soldiers 4-8 RCL gun mounted on jeeps ,5-10 Hunters,many anti-tank mine but not deployed sate.
    Pakistani side -4000+ soldiers , 100-110 Patton Tanks (some chinese Too),Air support
    Result- 40-60 Paki tanks destroyed completly,20 return to base in damaged conditions Captured-20-40,2000-3000 Paki soldier killed unknown captured.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Longewala

    Search Longewala on google images & it will you all destroyed tank
    This battle is also known as “Battle of Longewala” or “SAGA OF LONGEWALA”

    what was the biggest Military Surrender??

    It was Poor Pak army 93000 soldiers surrender in Front of brave Indian Army
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Surrender_(1971)
    You all seem to be missing the point, each special force has a speciality. . . You see in africa the South African Recce’s are prob the world’s best in african bush warfare! As of the new government they have deteriorated a lot during the apartheid regime even though they were racists they were exceptional and the stories of their feats are nearly unparalleled. There is no one best special force, it’s all variable you see. Take into account terrain, adversaries, goals etc etc. . .

  • David Brown

    Well I am sick to read India-Pakistan comparison. ISI training militants and creating terror in every nook and corner of the world. India does not need propaganda, it needs to deliver something.

    When you blame ISI, you should blame CIA too, which was an equal accomplice in creating these holy warriors. See, these intelligence agencies do such dirty things. CIA does it, ISI does it, so does RAW. RAW is engaged in subversive activities against Pakistan using Afghanistan as a base camp. This is a well known fact. RAW is behind tribal insurgency in Baluchistan and NWFP province of Pakistan. If RAW is doing all this, it is doing it for its country. So does ISI or CIA or any other agency.

    RAW did a wonderful job by creating trouble for Pakistan in its backyard, however, it was dismally failed in tracing the terrorist elements within its own country. If I agree with you that ISI is behind it, why RAW failed to detect it in advance. That’s the failure on its part.

    Indian are proud of their armed forces and commandos, all these claims are judged by solid performance. This time performance was dismal. When I say dismal, I don’t say that Indian commandos are poor performers or unprofessional. A commando of any country is a commando, whether it be US, UK, Pakistan, Israel or India.

    Pakistanis commandos performed poorly during PANAM hijacking case. They later learned the lesson and incorporated it in their training. They got training for anti terrorist activities wherever they could. Western analysts are damned impressed observing their performance in war on terror. You have no idea what they did in Baluchistan. Their commandos lost their lives, yet was able to play a crucial role in eliminating the tribal leader being supported by India. On many other occasions they proved themselves true to what they are trained for.

    Indian commandos were not fully equipped to take on the challenge during Mumbai carnage. If they had similar equipment and training as that of their US counterparts, they could have finished this drama quickly, swiftly and with much less casualty.

    I also went through the story of battle of Longewala. It was a great victory on the part of India. However, what I noticed was emotional tone on the part of Indian writers. I don’t know why you Indians and Pakistanis are so emotional when you write about war history. You should learn from western historians. You can point out this emotionalism in Hollywood movies, yet for our war historians, war is a war. Let me know about any Indian or Pakistani website that could give me neutral and unemotional account of the wars you two great nations have fought with each other. Your emotional responses with regards to India-Pakistan hatred is now forcing me to read your war history.

    All I need is unbiased and propaganda free website. Whatever, I have gone through is not up to the mark.

  • grumpy old man

    responding to andy.

    US vs British forces is well established, please refer to American history and the US Revolution. We kicked their bloody arses.

    end of story.

  • http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/ Sven Ortmann

    The British rather kicked your asses in 1812 and U.S.American troops got panicked at Kasserine when engaged for the first time by German troops that had previously been defeated by and running away from British Empire forces for weeks.

    It’s a fact that U.S.Americans believe their military is the greatest – they don’t see its many shortcomings as anything else than accidental and don’t draw conclusions of its many embarrassing failures against other armies.
    And they don’t know that the U.S.Army was the apprentice of the French army and the U.S.Navy the apprentice of the Royal Navy in the First World War – the French influence was extremely overt till the 30’s and even today the U.S.Army is still preaching firepower as solution to almost all military challenges as did the French in 1917.

  • EgregiousCharles

    How the heck did this turn into a series of rather pathetic attempts to tear down the reputation of the US military? This is a bad joke; as if the 57 flavors of US special forces, with different levels of training, exclusivity, and purpose, could be compared en masse to the also varied special forces of some other country, or as if the performance of 1812 militias or WWII draftees could be relevant to our current professional army.

    But I’ll play along, cause it’s a game that’s easy to win! We in the USA believe our military is the greatest because it is, except possibly for Finland.

    We have never lost a war that had the government properly behind it; we lost Vietnam because our government peristed in treating it as a ‘police action'; because our military is ultimately under civilian authority, and the civilian authority persisted in ordering rules of engagement totally unsuited to the conflict.

    In 1812 the US was still a rural breakaway colony of the British Empire, largest empire in history, with the most powerful army and navy in the world; the war was fought to a negotiated peace in which both sides compromised; the British went on to conquer so much of the rest of the Earth that the sun never set on their empire, but “John Bull” (derogatory American term for the British) never tangled with “Cousin Jonathan” (derogatory British term for the Americans) again.

    The US does have a long history of studying French military technique dating back to the aid that the Marquis of Lafayette and others provided in the Revolutionary War. The French were pretty good in those days. See Napoleon Bonaparte.

    Sven, you’ve reminded us of failure at the Kasserine; we went on to many spectacular victories, sometimes against overwhelming odds, later; how did the militaries of Norway or Denmark or Sweden do resisting the Nazis in WWII? The only nations with fewer failures than the US were those afraid to fight.

    And there we see the motivation for this yapping like a little dog behind a fence barking at a big dog; jealousy.

    To be realistic instead of just playing, a lot of the best militaries in the world are from little nations that have regularly fought (even if unsuccessfully) enormously larger nations, e.g Finland, Poland, Lithuania, Israel, many others. In truth, rating the really good ones one against another is impossible; no two battles are the same, and even if they were the armies have different strengths and weaknesses.

    • http://www.thefirearmblog.com Steve

      Ok everyone enough with this. Please stick to the topic.

    • sumit sawe

      You now lost in Afghanistan too.

  • Bobby P

    OK, all your talking isnt going change what the NSG or MARCOS do, they are one of the best! and why are you blaming Indian Commandos? What did the American air force or its F-15s do when they were attack on 9/11? NOTHING.

    It’s easy for people to talk, when they have NEVER experienced any of this combat first hand.

    Take it easy

  • Bobby P

    And David, the Indian government has promised to place NSG teams to tackle terrorist hostage taking scenarios. They have promised to increase spending on training, and equipment. And also have promised to train and equip the local police to deal with such situations.

    The NSG commandos will now be placed in major Indian cities such as Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Kolkatta and New Delhi. They will be assigned to their bases permanently.

    Lets hope this will happen.

  • Larry

    I don’t know the equipment that I saw the NSG teams carry looked like the old RBA coupled with crash helmets (or motor cycle helmets). The don’t seem to be very well funded, especially given their terrorism problem. This leads me to believe that they don’t have very good night vision devices (possibly 1st gen), if any at all, which could have been a decisive advantage.

    I know equipment does not make the Soldier, but in a scrap I know it helps.

    This tragic episode does nothing for India’s military reputation.

  • David Brown

    Bobby P, that’s what I tried to mention that Indian commandos need training. Now Indian government has accepted the failure in this area. This is a reactive approach. When India is situated in such a volatile region and present in Afghanistan, its repercussions were bound to reach India.

    That was the failure generally on the part of Indian government and particularly on the part of Indian armed forces that they did not foresee the situation and trained and equipped themselves for a just-in-case situation.

    Now it is important to determine from where Indian security forces get training to combat such a determined, fanatic die-hard attackers. These guys are perfect killing machines. I guess there were many casualties among Indian commandos. I can assess this by observing images and extent of details available on Internet and media resources.

    The hotel they fought in was like a labyrinth. Searching and killing terrorists with hostages was a daunting task for Indian commandos. Ill-equipped and ill-trained Indian commandos must have bore the brunt of ruthless and bent-upon-death diehards.

    I guess at least 10 to 12 Indian commandos must have lost their lives. During these gun-battles, many hostages must have been killed, all of them credited to terrorists. This is the worst part that will never be disclosed by Indian authorities. This is where training come into play. If Indian commandos had been trained professionally and equipped with right weapons such as corner shots, etc. the result of this gun-battle would have been quite different.

    I suggest, Indian commandos should contact either US, UK or Israel for such training. I doubt if they could develop this capability on their own.

  • Sid

    10 commandos lost their lives? Where are you getting your facts from? There was only one NSG casualty in the entire operation. The whole base of the original article is wrong and some of the posters dont know their elbow from their asshole. The terrorists werent using MP5’s they had AK’s AND frag grenades. Have you faced a frag grenade in a closed room with hostages? Do you know what it does to you? ANY special operations trooper will be shitting bricks in such a situation. It doesnt matter who you are SAS,GSG9 or Delta. A fanatical terrorist in a closed room with a bag full of grenades and a AK with hostages = A perfect nightmare.
    The lone terrorist in chabad house picked up the mp5 of the slain NSG trooper and fired a few shots with it before being executed. The NSG has had 2 casualties so far in its ENTIRE OPERATIONAL HISTORY. Dont trust the Indian media on facts..They get their military facts wrong pretty easily.As for me I was personally there.

  • anton

    Prove it.

    Period.

    • Scott Schoemann

      the reply of a liberal idiot, how sad!

  • David Brown

    Sid, I would like to sympathize with you since you are an Indian and you witnessed it personally. May I know in what capacity were you present there? It is very interesting to have a feedback from the person who seems to be a professional and was present there on the scene.

    What is your idea in terms of failure on the part of Indian government, Indian security forces and Indian media. I understand that it was an unusual situation but media coverage gave an impression that entire Indian machinery was in chaos. It was an incident of terrorism, whereas the entire nation was seem to be in the state of war. What will happen if India has to go on war with Pakistan for which, very unfortunately, your government seems to be bent upon.

    I understand that I have hurled too many questions at you. All of them are, however, peripheral. My main question is, if you put your emotionalism and nationalism aside, what were the deficiencies in terms of special weapons and tactics on the part of Indian Special forces? What would you suggest to your government or your commander regarding weapons, tactics and training to combat such situation in future?

    The logic of this question is that you cannot afford anymore failure in future. You faced more or less similar terrorism when your parliament was attacked, but it seems as if neither the lessons were learned nor did your military made any serious effort to foresee and plan to counter such situations.

    And last but not the least, leave your nationalism aside, would you like your special forces be trained by US commandos if it is officially offered to you by our government?

    Please reply.

  • i-luv-1911

    the terrorists are mainly armed with kalashnikovs (ak47, 7.62×39) while the cts are armed with FN FAL 7.62×51, Lee-Enfield .303 and MP5 9×19(main).

    7.62×39 –>medium recoil. able to penetrate walls, some body armor, high stopping power.
    9×19–>low recoil. wall penetration? some degree. defeat body armor? NOPE. unless close range of course. stopping power is, well, low. but in the hotel the range is really low. it can stop effectively.
    .303–> the ct force didnt use this the hotel. plus nobody will use this in urban close range conditions.
    7.62×51–>i dunno if the cts used this in the hotel…

    verdict: both main weapons have their pros and cons, but in those conditions both would work the same. it doesnt matter who was using what. the mumbai police have no excuse to the incident.

    pyschologically, i would pee in my pants if i hear an ak47 go off. the muzzle brake kills all ears. i dont think the commandoes would do that though.

  • Bobby P

    Sid, are you saying you were an NSG commando or were you part of the MARCOS or just a witness?…It is strictly prohibited to give your identity if you are an NSG or MARCOS member…And David I don’t understand what your point is? The MARCOS are based on the SAS and US Navy Seals and are equipped and trained the same way as a SEAL or an SAS operative…SAS use MP5’s as primary weapon, MARCOS use MP5 as primary weapon…MARCOS train CQB and head-shot procedure a million times over…same with the SAS. I dont see why you are hell bent on the NSG and MARCOS getting more training from Seals/SAS/GIGN…or whoever.

    And whats all this crap about India being ill-equipped and ill-trained. India spends $30 Billion on military…which is 3rd/4th highest in the world….I mean come on. Blaming the NSG/MARCOS for slow response; its not their fault. Its all political bullshit, we cant blame the soldiers for it, we must blame the politcians.

    And, unfortunately 2 brave commandos lost their life. Not 10, I dont know what your sources are…

    MARCOS battle terrorists in Kashmir everyday, with 100% success rate, lets hope it remains like that. They are one of the elite units in the world. Does’nt matter what you all say or think.

  • manstopper

    Stay calm people, and accept other’s opinions. Handle others’ comments with a cool, logical answer without sticking your fingers in other’s eyes. Take-no-prisoner rants and raves never works. Using an angry tone is never a persuasive technique.

  • vance

    I’m sure that the AK47 is deadlier than the MP5 as to its range and a very good rifle for urban combat exept for its recoil at automatic mode whereas Mp5 is good for extremely close combat but can be stopped by even cheap b.vests(Recall how Karkare was killed by an AK even thought in bullet proof vest).As for the quarrel above,think yourself if you are there in that situation or at least visit those areas of attack especially the Taj.Sitting safely in your room with a remote and mouse at hand and passing comments like Rambo wont do any good coz Rambo is a fantasy.

  • subby

    Its just publicity, I’m sure people in india are much more ignorant about guns than people who live in the us. Just politicians trying to save face for their being completely unprepared.

  • http://www.gmail.com shudip

    What have you done with my comments on 26/11

  • http://homemadedefense.blogspot.com Kevlar

    Just an aside, most of the Enfields still in use in India are Ishapore 2As chambered in 7.62 NATO with a 12 round magazine, manufactured in the 1960s. I have one, they are great.

  • markilu

    If the indian special forces are pathetic, then why is the green berets training at CIJWS ?

    That should answer it all.

  • Bobby P

    At Markilu,

    When did I say Indian forces are pathetic? What are you talking about…

  • mp5fav

    The Ak47 is an assault rifle; hardier than the M16. In terms of firepower, it beats the latter. It certainly beats the MP5 in that respect. The only time the AK47 beats the M16 is at longer range accuracy. The MP5 itself isn’t very accurate over longer distances, the kind assault rifles are accustomed to. If you’re talking about 20 yards, sure, the MP5 beats most assault rifles overall, especially in terms of accuracy and ease of use, but in populated areas where the attacks took place and military forces, some of which were “elite”, were converging on the terrorists, to say the MP5 is superior to the AK47 is an only an excuse for not being able to resolve the situation quickly. Where was all that training in marksmanship?

  • HotelCoralEssex

    The entire subcontinent is awash in corruption and incompetence. No side is better than any others, most of the people in power on both sides are power hungry criminals and gangsters, and nothing is going to change there until the cultures on both sides change for the better.

    It doesn’t surprise me at all that an Indian or Pakistani LE representative would say something like this. It would also not surprise me if he actually believed what he was saying.

  • Sam

    Dnt knw wht u guys ar talkng abut…the marcos are far better trained than those para commandos and black cats which is more or less a police commando force governed by the home ministry. There are only 500-800 marcos. They also works wit the RAW in covert operations behind enemy line. There should be no comparision between marcos and nsg. Recently the navy chief urged the marcos to train those black cats.SO THEY CAN ONLY BE COMPARED AS TEACHER AND STUDENTS.

    • vishal

      Dear Sam….u r wrong….the SAG component of the NSG that takes part in ops is a pure army unit comprising of Para SF n infantry guys….police can’t even shoot straight buddy…n para commandos are the number one SF in India…no doubt’s…the Marcos looks flashy but they’re new n evolving…in fact they’ve been trained by the army initially.

  • http://www.gmail.com shudip

    I am not able to open the link to reply regarding Sam’s latest comment. From the text of his comment it appears that he is not really familiar with the outstanding track record of the Indian Army Paracommondos both in war and low intensity conflicts. He is also biased in favour of the navy Marcos, which completely failed to counteract Pakistani terrorists in Mumbai in November 2008 and had to withdraw. It was actually the Paracommandos, which form the backbone of the SAG 51 and SAG 52, the actual combat arms of the NSG that exterminated the Pakistani terrorists. They also make up the Special Group with the SFF (another army outfit), which is India’s premier yet most secretive counter-terrorist unit. They would make Marcos seem like kindergarten stuff. Yes the Special Ranger’s Group of the NSG is made up of men from central police organizations, which plays second fiddle to the Army personnel in the NSG.

  • Scott Schoemann

    Apples and Oranges, Apples and Oranges. ANYONE with realworld experience with the AK, the Armalite and the MP, equally can tell you that the weapons all have different suitabilities. The comment that the MP5 is deadlier than the AK is flat wrong, however. The simple fact of base firepower negates this comment. the 7.62×39 simply out powers the 9mm and the .40 that the MP5 is available in, and in the shorter range of the pistol calibers the rifle round can disable body armor…
    BUT deployability must be looked at. The AK is not as “convenient” as the MP5, so the HK design can be fielded easier in guerrilla tactic situations that the larger and heavier firearm offers disadvantages to. As for the Armalite design, the M series, M-16 and M4… people will argue the caliber is bad, without the thought about the other calibers it is fielded in, or the specific conditions it is used in. The simple fact is the HK designed MP5 is a machine pistol with a buttsock in its basic config, and often the stock is removed or replaced with a folder or collapsing replacement. The AK and M-16/M4 are rifles (and occasionally true carbines), so the comparison is moot. The rifle is indeed deadlier under identical circumstances, but as with any tool, is only as good as the person using it. And only a fool blames the tools for their lack of skills.

    • pepe romo

      The mp5 was also manufactured in 10mm. Everyone knows that the 10mm is the most powerful cartridge ever conceived.

  • Scott Schoemann

    Geeze WHat a bunch of armchair quarterbacka and ignoramuses Especially you aryan99. The 5.56 is the most fielded caliber IN THE WORLD, bar NONE. Even NON NATO members use it. It is the most reliable small arms caliber there is. Just because you read a “story” about how the congress ordered a batch of bad ammo that didnt meet pentagon specs back in the 60s doesnt mean anything… ok rant on THAT is off now on to the facts that are ON topic.
    The BIG problem is that of culture and tradition. Sid I apologize in advance if I step on your toes. I tend to be brutal, and my intent is not aimed at being disrespectful, Your country has a rich culture, but sadly too much of it is based in pacifistic beliefs. If India had an armed municipal police force, organized off a model like that of the US, they could have had an immediate mobilization of armed officers, trained to respond to situations just like this, while a specialized unit was responding to the scene to take over, and if necessary, a Military based unit could come into play as a third tier response. As it stands, India is left with a singular response and it is sadly “too little too late” It doesnt matter how well trained or armed the response unit was. Once the terrorists were entrenched it was just too late. Just as with the US, the attack on Pearl Harbor, or the attack on the World Trade Center, there are certain levels that we simply cant respond to without putting the population at risk. Pearl, caught us totally unprepared, in extreme arrogance of belief that it could not happen and we learned otherwise. On 9/11 we knew better, but if we took down one of the airliners, we risked killing civillians on the ground and in the planes, and were left to deal with the unknown acts of those in the cockpits. But the leaders of your country were well aware of the risk posed by a terrorist harboring neighbor and chose not to change the way they viewed law enforcement. Terrorism is only a military issue after the fact, before the attack it is a civillian law enforcement issue because the military isnt there. Following the long standing tradition of an unarmed policeforce is akin to not giving the fire brigade water, buckets or hoses. Just as our nation is full of foolish leaders who need to be removed from office and dealt with in a criminal court system, so does yours, as they have forgotten their sacred duty above all is to protect the people from outside hostile forces.

  • benji tombing

    come to NE India and u will know how to operate every gun…………… lol