Comments on: New Charter Arms Rimless Revolver (CARR) http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/ Firearms not Politics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:19:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Si http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-70169 Si Wed, 24 Aug 2011 02:47:05 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-70169 The Pit Bull is out as 40S&W, Charter Arm model 74020 SS 5 shot 2in barrel, 20oz, typical Charter Arms design. The 9mm is for late 2011 and the 45auto after that. This is per correspondence from Charter Arms mfg. It has been a long time since the 2009 announcement. Could e a good Taurus 905SS2 substitute. The Pit Bull is out as 40S&W, Charter Arm model 74020 SS 5 shot 2in barrel, 20oz, typical Charter Arms design. The 9mm is for late 2011 and the 45auto after that. This is per correspondence from Charter Arms mfg. It has been a long time since the 2009 announcement. Could e a good Taurus 905SS2 substitute.

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56532 scott t Sun, 27 Feb 2011 18:12:32 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56532 "Nothing short of a SL Variant-type speedloader design is likely to force a cartridge past a spring-loaded extractor." i am not sure what a sl variant type speedloader is. "The HKS speedloader for the 547 covered quite a bit of the cartridges. Thus, it couldn’t force the cartridges all the way into their chambers" i dont know if thats true or not. it seems if they made a speedloader for a rimless cartrige they would have taken that into account and it would have been developed to push the cartridge until the spring caught the groove in the casing. the product sounds like a liability rather than a speedloader. “Nothing short of a SL Variant-type speedloader design is likely to force a cartridge past a spring-loaded extractor.”

i am not sure what a sl variant type speedloader is.

“The HKS speedloader for the 547 covered quite a bit of the cartridges. Thus, it couldn’t force the cartridges all the way into their chambers”

i dont know if thats true or not. it seems if they made a speedloader for a rimless cartrige they would have taken that into account and it would have been developed to push the cartridge until the spring caught the groove in the casing.

the product sounds like a liability rather than a speedloader.

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56530 Daniel E. Watters Sun, 27 Feb 2011 14:56:37 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56530 scott t: Fired cartridge cases do not necessarily fall out under their own weight. The higher the operating pressure, the more likely they are to stick. Ejectors are there for a reason. The HKS speedloader for the 547 covered quite a bit of the cartridges. Thus, it couldn't force the cartridges all the way into their chambers. Even the magazine reviews of the time noted this issue. I seem to remember that reviews of the Medusa and the Phillips & Rogers conversions noted the same issue. Nothing short of a SL Variant-type speedloader design is likely to force a cartridge past a spring-loaded extractor. scott t: Fired cartridge cases do not necessarily fall out under their own weight. The higher the operating pressure, the more likely they are to stick. Ejectors are there for a reason.

The HKS speedloader for the 547 covered quite a bit of the cartridges. Thus, it couldn’t force the cartridges all the way into their chambers. Even the magazine reviews of the time noted this issue. I seem to remember that reviews of the Medusa and the Phillips & Rogers conversions noted the same issue. Nothing short of a SL Variant-type speedloader design is likely to force a cartridge past a spring-loaded extractor.

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56441 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:05:14 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56441 other issues with moonclips perhaps. if the cartridges drop freely why even need a moonclip..they should freely fall out??? i doubt the spring would be so difficult as to make one have to jam a cartridge in the cylinder. and with a speedloader on would have extra leverage. somehow i dont think that translates into a fast-loading-problem issue. in the photo i saw of the carr there wasnt anything protruding into the cylinder....somehow i guess when the cartridge is already pushed into the cylinder some distance the spring loaded clip engages. other issues with moonclips perhaps.

if the cartridges drop freely why even need a moonclip..they should freely fall out???

i doubt the spring would be so difficult as to make one have to jam a cartridge in the cylinder. and with a speedloader on would have extra leverage.

somehow i dont think that translates into a fast-loading-problem issue.

in the photo i saw of the carr there wasnt anything protruding into the cylinder….somehow i guess when the cartridge is already pushed into the cylinder some distance the spring loaded clip engages.

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56433 Daniel E. Watters Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:53:14 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56433 As I said earlier, the spring-loaded extractor in the S&W 547 prevents the cartridges from dropping freely into the chamber, even when the HKS speedloader is used. It would be significantly slower than a revolver using a speedloader with rimmed cartridges, which is slower than revolver using full moon clips. Charter is not the first company to experiment with a wire extractor. S&W played with the idea back around the 1900s-1910s before settling on the half-moon clip for the M1917. If I remember correctly, Manurhin used it for the 9mm cylinders for the MR73, and Ruger played with the concept with the 9mm revolvers submitted for the same French contract. My worry with the spring wire extractor is that you could experience the same problem occasionally encountered with conventional revolvers and rimmed cartridges. During extraction, a cartridge case can tip and slip under the extractor. At least with the S&W 547, the extractor's tapered shape allowed it to retract past the rim of the 9x19mm case and pick it up for a second try. There is no such issue with full moon clips. The prime complaint with full moon clips is the possibility of them bending, and then binding the rotation of the cylinder. The current clip loading/unloading devices help prevent the abuse caused by ham-handed users when they attempt to force the cartridges on and off the clips manually. The rigid carrying cases also go a long way in preventing the clips from being bent. As I said earlier, the spring-loaded extractor in the S&W 547 prevents the cartridges from dropping freely into the chamber, even when the HKS speedloader is used. It would be significantly slower than a revolver using a speedloader with rimmed cartridges, which is slower than revolver using full moon clips.

Charter is not the first company to experiment with a wire extractor. S&W played with the idea back around the 1900s-1910s before settling on the half-moon clip for the M1917. If I remember correctly, Manurhin used it for the 9mm cylinders for the MR73, and Ruger played with the concept with the 9mm revolvers submitted for the same French contract. My worry with the spring wire extractor is that you could experience the same problem occasionally encountered with conventional revolvers and rimmed cartridges. During extraction, a cartridge case can tip and slip under the extractor. At least with the S&W 547, the extractor’s tapered shape allowed it to retract past the rim of the 9x19mm case and pick it up for a second try. There is no such issue with full moon clips.

The prime complaint with full moon clips is the possibility of them bending, and then binding the rotation of the cylinder. The current clip loading/unloading devices help prevent the abuse caused by ham-handed users when they attempt to force the cartridges on and off the clips manually. The rigid carrying cases also go a long way in preventing the clips from being bent.

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56422 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:02:09 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56422 The major drawback to rimless semi-auto cartridges in revolvers is they require specially made revolvers............ i dont really understand this. the lcr is a specially made revolver with a plastic fire control mechanism. moon clips are specially made, etc. i have read that a speedloader exists for the sw 547 made by hks.... if the gun is real it seems that it will perform as any other rimmed cartridge firing revolver with the same type of speedloader and if without a speedloader or moonclip it can be hand loaded and extracted easier. The major drawback to rimless semi-auto cartridges in revolvers is they require specially made revolvers…………

i dont really understand this. the lcr is a specially made revolver with a plastic fire control mechanism.

moon clips are specially made, etc.

i have read that a speedloader exists for the sw 547 made by hks….

if the gun is real it seems that it will perform as any other rimmed cartridge firing revolver with the same type of speedloader and if without a speedloader or moonclip it can be hand loaded and extracted easier.

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56421 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:53:02 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56421 *IF* you could get it to work, its a great concept........ i was told on another borad that it isnt a concept but an actual product. why the delays i dont know. *IF* you could get it to work, its a great concept……..

i was told on another borad that it isnt a concept but an actual product. why the delays i dont know.

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56420 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:51:39 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56420 looking, I suspect they had major problems with the design. Assume it does not exist until otherwise proven......... would a company release information about a new product that didnt even work??? letting other manufacturees aware of their plans and giving a release date based on a non working firearm design??? why assume it doen not exist?? why not say i dont know. looking, I suspect they had major problems with the design. Assume it does not exist until otherwise proven………

would a company release information about a new product that didnt even work???

letting other manufacturees aware of their plans and giving a release date based on a non working firearm design???

why assume it doen not exist?? why not say i dont know.

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56419 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:48:32 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56419 and would love to have a .45 acp revolver to take care of the left overs........ 400 dollars worth of bad 45acp?? and would love to have a .45 acp revolver to take care of the left overs……..

400 dollars worth of bad 45acp??

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56418 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:45:05 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56418 the “jump” from chamber to barrel will provide poorer accuracy............. maybe you can contact the company if that if frame size is an issue for you. isnt the 38spl shorter than a 357mag and they can be fired in the same gun??? do all bullets jump from cylinder to barrel?? the only advantage of 9mm over .38 Special is cost of ammo. If you reload, that disappears. ................ reload the gun? or handload new bullets into casings?? what if you dont reload? the “jump” from chamber to barrel will provide poorer accuracy………….

maybe you can contact the company if that if frame size is an issue for you.

isnt the 38spl shorter than a 357mag and they can be fired in the same gun??? do all bullets jump from cylinder to barrel??

the only advantage of 9mm over .38 Special is cost of ammo. If you reload, that disappears. …………….

reload the gun? or handload new bullets into casings??

what if you dont reload?

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56417 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:37:27 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56417 "My only complaint is that the .40 should have been chambered in 10mm, with .40 as the “special” option." why? how prevalent is te 10mm to the 40 sw?? would i tmake more sense to provide a carr revolver for the most widely used cartridges and if successful then add more??? hasnt the 10mm lost favor with many police ??? either power or cost issues?? i believe raleigh nc quit using it years ago “My only complaint is that the .40 should have been chambered in 10mm, with .40 as the “special” option.”

why?

how prevalent is te 10mm to the 40 sw?? would i tmake more sense to provide a carr revolver for the most widely used cartridges and if successful then add more???

hasnt the 10mm lost favor with many police ??? either power or cost issues?? i believe raleigh nc quit using it years ago

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56416 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:31:55 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56416 "Full moon clips are not “fragile”, they are the best way to reload a revolver. Rather than the rimless extractor, I believe that full moon clips are the way to go. " why?? doesnt every rimmed cartridge fiirng revolver have a speedloader available for purchase somewhere?? did the hks 547 speedloader that i have seen mentioned online work as well as any other speedloader??? and if you happen to have neither moonclip nor speedloader for rimless cartridge wouldnt it still be easier to extract casings from for faster hand loading if necessary?? “Full moon clips are not “fragile”, they are the best way to reload a revolver. Rather than the rimless extractor, I believe that full moon clips are the way to go. “

why??

doesnt every rimmed cartridge fiirng revolver have a speedloader available for purchase somewhere??

did the hks 547 speedloader that i have seen mentioned online work as well as any other speedloader???

and if you happen to have neither moonclip nor speedloader for rimless cartridge wouldnt it still be easier to extract casings from for faster hand loading if necessary??

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56415 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:26:06 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56415 "I certainly hope they get their wits and realize that 4″-6″ in the acp will sell a lot more guns than 2.5″ why??? isnt 4 to 6 inch covered well in the market by the semiautos with more ammo capacity already?? 10+ rounds? do many carry a revolver as a primary and a semi auto as a backup?? or is it more likely to be the other way around?? “I certainly hope they get their wits and realize that 4″-6″ in the acp will sell a lot more guns than 2.5″

why??? isnt 4 to 6 inch covered well in the market by the semiautos with more ammo capacity already?? 10+ rounds?

do many carry a revolver as a primary and a semi auto as a backup?? or is it more likely to be the other way around??

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]]> By: scott t http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-56414 scott t Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:21:29 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-56414 "....on barell length for .45acp.since that round is barrel length sensitive." isnt every cartridge barrell length sensitive?? para makes diminutive .45acp pistols as do others “….on barell length for .45acp.since that round is barrel length sensitive.”

isnt every cartridge barrell length sensitive??

para makes diminutive .45acp pistols as do others

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]]> By: Denton http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-54435 Denton Tue, 01 Feb 2011 00:42:24 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-54435 Unless Charter is planning to make a shorter frame for these chamberings, the only advantage of 9mm over .38 Special is cost of ammo. If you reload, that disappears. A .38-length gun chambered in 9mm provides no reduction in size, and the "jump" from chamber to barrel will provide poorer accuracy. A 5-shot 9mm (or .380) could be a really small gun, if it is sized to the cartridge. BTW, I like my S&W 1917. It's very quick to reload with full moon clips. I made shotshells for it by shortening and trimming .30-06 brass. Unless Charter is planning to make a shorter frame for these chamberings, the only advantage of 9mm over .38 Special is cost of ammo. If you reload, that disappears. A .38-length gun chambered in 9mm provides no reduction in size, and the “jump” from chamber to barrel will provide poorer accuracy. A 5-shot 9mm (or .380) could be a really small gun, if it is sized to the cartridge.
BTW, I like my S&W 1917. It’s very quick to reload with full moon clips. I made shotshells for it by shortening and trimming .30-06 brass.

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]]> By: Steve http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-43053 Steve Sun, 19 Sep 2010 09:54:47 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-43053 looking, I suspect they had major problems with the design. Assume it does not exist until otherwise proven. looking, I suspect they had major problems with the design. Assume it does not exist until otherwise proven.

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]]> By: looking closely http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-43044 looking closely Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:35:22 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-43044 Q1 2009 has come and gone and so has Q2 2010, but I haven't heard of nor seen any of these revolvers yet. I'd assume Charter arms has quietly dropped plans for production. Whether its because they don't think the guns will sell in this bad economy, or more likely because they could actually get working guns out at their stated price point is unclear, but again . . .no guns. Personally, I'd be thrilled to drop $400 on a quality 9mm luger snubnose. or even a .45ACP. . .("quality" being key) but I'm not holding my breath here. I Q1 2009 has come and gone and so has Q2 2010, but I haven’t heard of nor seen any of these revolvers yet.

I’d assume Charter arms has quietly dropped plans for production.

Whether its because they don’t think the guns will sell in this bad economy, or more likely because they could actually get working guns out at their stated price point is unclear, but again . . .no guns.

Personally, I’d be thrilled to drop $400 on a quality 9mm luger snubnose. or even a .45ACP. . .(“quality” being key) but I’m not holding my breath here. I

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]]> By: Jason m http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-41564 Jason m Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:47:17 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-41564 I have a .45 auto that is a finicky eater. It does not like some of the rounds I try to feed it and would love to have a .45 acp revolver to take care of the left overs. I have a .45 auto that is a finicky eater. It does not like some of the rounds I try to feed it and would love to have a .45 acp revolver to take care of the left overs.

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]]> By: Daniel E. Watters http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-33233 Daniel E. Watters Mon, 10 May 2010 22:32:28 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-33233 Dan, That looks more like a reference/review site than a store. Dan,

That looks more like a reference/review site than a store.

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]]> By: Dan http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/new-charter-arms-rimless-revolver-carr/comment-page-1/#comment-33093 Dan Sun, 09 May 2010 13:23:24 +0000 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?p=3335#comment-33093 These revolvers are not in the Charter Arms catalog yet but one in 9mm is FOR SALE here: http://www.gundirectory.com/more.asp?gid=20860&gun=Revolver Does this mean they are in production or is this a demo that escaped? These revolvers are not in the Charter Arms catalog yet but one in 9mm is FOR SALE here:

http://www.gundirectory.com/more.asp?gid=20860&gun=Revolver

Does this mean they are in production or is this a demo that escaped?

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