POF-USA P-308
The POF-USA P-308 is a interesting rifle. It is a gas piston operated rifle, based on the AR-10/AR-15 design and requires no lubrication.
14.5″ version
They achieve this by plating the upper receiver with silicon nickel and chroming and heat treating the bolt and carrier.
Upper receiver
Here is a video of it in action
In spite of its name, it is chambered in 7.62X51mm, not .308 (yes, there is a difference).
More info at POF-USA and Defense Review.
Holy crap, this thread lives! Ha ha! Seems like you already have your answer, Mike, and I concur with Joe and Dan. Get a matched upper/lower if you can, but I’ve seen POF uppers used with different lowers, and I’m not aware of any reason why you couldn’t pair it up with just about any standard AR-10 lower–it just might not fit quite as well as with a matched.
Here’s an auction on GB for a California-compliant P-308 14.5″. It might not be exactly what you’re looking for, but it’s just an example to show that they’re out and about.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=265831601
Joe, thank you for your prompt response. This thread is so old I was I didn’t know if I’d get one. But you are very helpful!!
Personally, I’d buy the whole system upper and lower together. Any good rifle store will sell you a pof complete with the California legal fixings.
The reason I say this is these rifles are engineered with VERY small tolerances, and the upper/lower fit like a glove. If something goes south, you’ve got one proverbial neck to choke, and no room for finger pointing crossfire between manufacturers. You may well find a combination that works exactly like you want, but it seems to me a risky gamble. An update to my previous posts: I have now put somewhere north of six thousand rounds down range with my Beatrice(p-308 16), and she’s not had a single malfunction.
Dan, thank you too, sir!! Oh yes absolutely I would much prefer the matched POF rifle. You know what I did not know that they are outfitting a lower to beat the Kalifornistan regulations. This is awesome if true. I will have to call them and have a chat. Now I wonder what the lead time is, I can’t wait months!! This rifle will be my primary go to defensive weapon for SHTF occurrence. Who knows when that will happen if it does? Clock is ticking faster now me thinks!!! I have two Win. 94AE one .45 Colt & other .44 Mag that I handload for. Two .22 LR semi auto rifles, a Glock 23 in .40 s&w, a Sig P226 in 9pm and a Ruger single action Super Black Hawk .44 Mag. and a cute little single shot 12 gauge. I still feel naked with just those, that .308 AR with decent glass and reliabilty gives us so much more
capability, obviously.
Hi Mike,
I feel your pain with the Cal restrictions. Since I bought my POF complete I don’t have any first hand experience. However, in the past year I’ve seen several POF uppers mated to different lowers posted on Texas Gun Trader. I just looked, and right now I don’t see any. I know for sure that at least one POF (308) upper was mated to a RRA lower, another was mated to a DPMS lower. That tells me that it can be done. Of course I don’t know if they had to do any “adjustments” to accomplish that. But I suspect that wasn’t the case because I’ve had both DPMS and RRA rifles in the past and I’ve found all their parts to be standarized.
Just as a side comment, in the past year I have bought a Remington, Kel-Tec RFB, Savage 10BA all in 308 caliber. I can truly say that the POF is still my favorite rifle. The others have their advantages, but overall if I had to have only one rifle it would be the POF.
Good luck Mike, and keep us posted.
Hi guys, hi Wade & Joe and everyone and hahaha, Arron!!
Guys I have read this whole thread from the beginning (WOW this thread is years old, tonight it is Xmas eve 2011) and I must say, my heart was sinking very quickly at the start. Well it got better as it looks
like POF has worked out the kinks? I hope so. But anyway I have a problem, I live in Kalifornistan in the SF bay area. I really want a P308, like yesterday. I have the funds good to go but again I live in Commieville!! So I must posse to you who can hopefully answer, if I order the P308 upper will a Ca legal lower receiver be acceptable and not hamper the performance of the P308 upper? I want the 16.5″ barrel. Any info is great, any and all recommendations please!!
Thank You for any knowledge you can provide, and merry Christmas to you all!!
Mike on the left coast……
Hi guys, hi Wade & Joe and everyone and hahaha, Arron!!
Guys I have read this whole thread from the beginning (WOW this thread is years old, tonight it is Xmas eve 2011) and I must say, my heart was sinking very quickly at the start. Well it got better as it looks
like POF has worked out the kinks? I hope so. But anyway I have a problem, I live in Kalifornistan in the SF bay area. I really want a P308, like yesterday. I have the funds good to go but again I live in Commieville!! So I must posse to you who can hopefully answer, if I order the P308 upper will a Ca legal lower receiver be acceptable and not hamper the performance of the P308 upper? I want the 16.5″ barrel. Any info is great, any and all recommendations please!!
Thank You for any knowledge you can provide, and merry Christmas to you all!!
Well.
Reading all these stories over past year make me think only one thing: “does anyone at POFs customer service speaks to Management to ensure changes are been made to QA at the production line?”
The same story over and over: “buy the rifle – go to the range – experience FTF or FTE – call the POF – be treated in a pleasant way – receive repaired rifle – no problems at all”
The words like “people who don’t experience the problem just don’t post anywhere” – honestly c’mon guys – how often you’ve heard on the forums that anyone at all had problems with for example Remington R-25, or DPMS (know the same as r25) or JP? I mean if production numbers are nearly identical (rem can be large scale) – if guns would be equally well Qality Checked prior leaving the factory – we’ll hear equal amount of complaints over the forums.
So basically there were enough amount of time to fix the issues… But POF still fixes the past (repair bad guns) and not trying fix the future (fix the reason)
My experience with POF has been a mixed bag.
I had a couple problems with my POF P308-16, I had to send it back a twice.
The first time I took it to the range, I had failure to feed issues. The weapon would chamber using the charging handle, but when fired, if failed to strip the next round off the magazine. I made the mistake of shipping it to the store I bought it from(on my own dime, I might add), who then sat on it for several weeks before shipping it to POF. POF’s service department had it back in my hand in less then a week.
The next time I went out to the range, I put about 100 rounds down range without incident. I took it our hunting, and all was well… until…
Thankfully, it happened on the range, and not in the field. I had just finished off a magazine. The last round ejected strangely, sort of ‘rolling’ out of the ejection port. The bolt was completely seized up, locked back half way and would not come unstuck no matter what I tried. It was the worst jam I’ve ever seen.
So, I sent it back(Direct to POF this time), and despite them taking a few days to send me the RMA and their shipping information, they repaired it very promptly and got it back to me in about two and a half weeks. This time, they completely replaced the bolt, and now, I have to give POF their due, this rifle is a real treat to shoot! I’ve put through well over a thousand rounds of good military surplus, federal vitalshok, custom loads, range ball .308, all kinds of ammunition, and not one single hiccup has occurred. She’ll eat whatever I feed her. I cant comment on groups/MOA, because I shoot food and silhouettes, but I can consistently hit a boar sized silhouette with irons at 700M. With a good scope on her I’m sure anyone with any rifle skill could thread needles quite a ways out.
It’s been a bit of a bumpy road getting here, but POF made it right. None of the repairs cost me a thing(except shipping it to the store I bought it at, my fault). After everything was said and done, I have confidence in my POF as both my primary hunting rifle, and as my SHTF solution.
Dan
Gamer,
The wait on the POF*USA P308-20-HSR-308-SPR is much longer than that. In fact, I have an online buddy who has been waiting nearly 16 weeks for his and it was purchased directly from Patriot Ordnance Factory in Arizona.
I have recently completed my build, short of having a Thunderbeast 30P-1 suppressor which I hope to purchase this fall. The specs are as follows:
Magpul Precision Rifle Stock
Geissele 2-stage Super Semi-Automatic trigger (2.5lb 1st, 2lb 2nd)
Magpul 7.62 Pmag
Primary Weapons Systems FSC30 compensator
Accu-Shot BT13 monopod
Atlas V8 BT10-LW17 bipod
Falcon Industries Ergo Tactical grip
American Defense Recon mount
NightForce NXS 5.5-22×50 (NP-R2 reticle, zero stop)
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/5773/p1000343z.jpg
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4899/p1000347r.jpg
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5779/p1000355e.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2093/p1000364f.jpg
thanks for the update. I am ready to pull the trigger on the hunter/sniper .308 model…it’s going to be 3 -5 weeeks before it comes in
Ok, sorry for the long delay. I don’t have much to reports, but I didn’t want to leave anyone hangin that might be interested. To follow up on my previous posts, I’ve taken the P-308-16 out a couple of times now. Regrettably, I’ve only been able to put a few mags through it, but I haven’t had any of the previously mentioned problems since I got it back from POF (various failure-to-feed issues). What’s been taking me so long is that I finally branched out from reloading just handgun ammo, and I’m putting together my own .308′s
Even shooting my handloads, the rifle hasn’t had any problems. I’ve only been shooting off-the-shelf FMJ’s and my handloads (Hornady “A-Max” ballistic tipped bullets, Winchester brass, Hodgon Varget powder… can’t remember what primers I got…) and I’ve only gone through maybe 50 rounds, so this doesn’t really say much regarding the reliability issues. However, I was previously encountering multiple FTF’s every time I took the rifle out, and haven’t had any yet… so TECHNICALLY it’s already doing “better” than it was before, for what that’s worth.
The rifle remains very accurate, and is a joy to shoot. If I had enough ammo I’d shoot it all day. When I miss, I can tell I did something wrong, like pulled to hard or flinched or anticipated, etc, and when I do everything right it’s right on target. The rifle was very accurate before I sent it in, though; the problem was the feeding issue. Only time and more shooting will tell! I’ll give a quick update at about the 200-250 round marker (not including the rounds I fired before I sent it in).
Please keep us posted
Just another update regarding my failure to feed issue. For a brief recap, after firing the chambered round, the following round would frequently slam into the area below the feed ramp (not going up the feed ramp).
I contacted POF via email, and they arranged to have UPS pick up my rifle fairly quickly. About 30 days later I got it back via UPS. POF had replaced the bolt, “extended” the feed ramp into the chamber slightly (maybe 1/8″) by smoothing out the area where the ramp and the chamber meet, and polished the ramp and chamber. Best of all, the only thing that I actually paid for was the box and packing materials I put the rifle in, which came to about $7. POF offered to reimburse me for the shipping/packing costs if I send in the receipt, but I kinda forgot and the $7 wasn’t really worth the trouble, anyway. All in all, I was very happy with their customer service and warranty, my only two complaints being that they didn’t notify me when they shipped the rifle back (I only found out when the UPS deliverer left a “1st attempt” note on my door), and they didn’t clean the rifle after testing it. The cleaning isn’t a HUGE deal, it just irked me a bit. As a former Marine, I compulsively keep my guns clean at all times, and I berate my friends when I see that they haven’t cleaned theirs
Regarding the repairs, I haven’t taken the rifle out yet to try it. It looks like they put a few mags through it before they sent it back, which gives me high hopes that it should work fine, but we’ll see. I’ll post again once I have a verdict.
I haven’t really posted about the accuracy before, but I should mention that even when I was having feeding problems the rifle seemed very accurate. I have the 16″ barrel version, and when some friends and I were just shooting for fun from the bench (with a bipod) I hit about 1″ to 1.5″ MOA @ 100yds fairly consistently, and we were using cheap Wolf ammo and not really trying for accuracy. I feel pretty confidant that if I get some nicer ammo and put my mind to it, I might be able to get close to that .5″ MOA mark. Again, though, we’ll see. Like Sgt Blaney said in his post before mine, if I can’t shoot it more accurately then it’s probably my fault, not the rifle’s, at this point. I’ll probably head out again before the end of the month and post the results.
-Ryan
Hey all,
I am very pleased to hear that everything has been going well on the P-308 front. I will admit when I first found this page I was starting to wonder about the “wonder rifle” I am telling all my buddies about. However as we have all seen it seems that the issues have been hammered out. I for one plan on purchasing one when I return home from my little jaunt with the Army here in Africa.
I plan on dropping some hard earned cash on the 6×48 Trijicon ACOG, and seeing how well the platform will do at engaging “targets” out around 600 yds. It upsets me how people will “bash” another brand or company just because they are fans of another. For example Ford/Chevy/Dodge. I also get really upset when people say that a weapon is crap because “it” (the weapon) can’t shoot a sub MOA.
The reality is, it is the shooter the entire time. If you haven’t mastered iron sights, you have no business in the next level. My dad refused to let me use any weapon system we had with optics until I had mastered my little .22 long rifle with iron sights. Pissed me off to no end… especially when we went on father son shoots on Post, however in the long run it payed off and I now shoot 40/40 on the Army weapons qual.
I would also like to address the ammunition problem. I have encountered some terrible looking ammo that really, should have never ever been issued out to anyone…and it has worked fine in my M-4s, M-9s, 240′s, and 249′s. Surprisingly enough though all the “Ma Duce” ammo was nice and shiny
. That says something for the “mass produced” Mil spec ammo that is issued out to the military. I may just be lucky but I would like to say I love the comment about the American, making the ammunition for Americans, at an American plant, in America.
That all being said I have rambled on for far to long now, I envy those of you who have your POFs and get to shoot them when you can. Enjoy them and please continue to post some range stories on here for the others and I to read.
God Bless,
SGT Blaney
Ryan,
I appreciate the well wishes for the safe return of my son-in-law. Your a good man.
Eggers,
the 11bravo is a dead give away to us old Army guys. I want you to know that I appreciate your service to our Country. Because of brave young men like you the rest of us can enjoy the good life here in the states. May God bless you and keep you safe.
Kindest regards,
Joe
I agree, I am in the U.S. Army (Infantry) the P308 is a much better firearm than the M4/M16. It’s a much more reliable firearms, and perfer piston over blow back any day. The 7.62×51 over the 5.56 is alaways a better pick.
Joe,
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. I’ll definitely take it into consideration when selecting ammo in the future.
By all means, I feel my POF in .308 is superior to my M-16 in almost every way… if only it didn’t keep failing to feed (although I’m working on getting this problem sorted out).
I wish your son-in-law well over there, and I hope he comes home safely.
Ryan
Hi Ryan,
I’ll address each of you comments in quotes.
“You referenced permanent “damage” being done to the rifle by the cheaper ammo several times in your post, but could you be more specific? What kind of damage are your referring to? The barrel?”
First of all let me say that that I did not say “permanent” damage. The damage you may have done to your POF is likely to be minor and easy to fix. The extractor is probably the thing that brakes first when using cheap ammo. To replace an extractor it takes a few minutes and a few dollars. So don’t sweat too much over it. The barrel is unlikely to be affected.
In general, the more insidious thing to worry is the effect that the brown/lacquer finished ammo has on all the internal parts of the rifle. It is cumulative and nearly impossible to clean. Additionally, the kinds of problems associated with cheap ammo, made in Communist bloc countries, is their accuracy or lack of it. They have old machines that our manufacturers sell off when they are deemed too expensive to maintain. Because they are worn out it is hard to calibrate them properly and for the calibration to stick. So you get more inaccurate products. Whether it is a brass case, a bullet jacket, gun powder accuracy matters and lack of it has an immediate effect and a long term effect on your rifle. I’m still talking in general terms here.
“If a handful of milsurp rounds can ruin the rifle, then do you really think it’s worth two and a half grand?”
Accuracy is expensive because of the law of diminishing returns. With each increment of improvement costs escalate exponentially.
“I have a hard time understanding how a rifle that’s touted as having “ultimate reliability” could be permanently ruined by doing exactly what it was made to do. My M-16 never had accuracy issues and the ammo I used they was by far crappier.”
“Ultimate reliability” is a marketing term has nothing to do with real world. Have you seen those Fidelity commercials about the green line appearing for their customers? Have you seen any green lines anywhere? Do you think anybody asks themselves “I just signed up with Fidelity and I didn’t get a green line”? I just got ripped off. It’s concept marketing.
“I understand that, ideally, you should use the nicest ammo possible for any firearm you shoot, but it was also my understanding that this particular rifle was made to eat up anything, under any circumstances (or at least that’s how it’s advertised). “
Most people know that there is no such thing as a free lunch or the tooth fairy. Your POF has eaten everything that you’ve put in it, so far, just as advertised. But there are long term consequences and at some point they will begin surfacing.
You can spin your tires with no immediate impact, but few people would expect to get the same life time of use afterwards. And the more you do it the shorter the life span. It’s the same if you do it with Michelin or some no name tire.
“I like to shoot a lot, but, quite frankly, I can’t afford to spend $1.25 a shot, especially when I can get Wolf ammo for about $0.40 a shot. *sigh* “
Boy I can understand that. I love to shoot, I would do it once a week if I could, but I can’t because it’s expensive. I shoot about 150 to 200 rounds of 308 and a couple hundred 9mm rounds every time I go to the range, about once a month. I would also like to buy the Wolf, Brown Bear, etc… have a good time and let tomorrow take care of itself, but I learned about delayed gratification long ago. It’s just a personal thing, I like to buy good rifle take good care of them so I can use them for a long time. When I was young I didn’t feel that way. My son has a sign by his bathroom mirror that says “You have to be young and stupid before you can be old and wise”. I guess I’m just older than you.
“Again, I’m not arguing the point that you should use better ammo, but you make it sound like I’m going to destroy my weapon by using decent milsurp ammo, and I just don’t understand how a P-308 could be inferior to my beat-to-hell M-16 in that manner.”
What I believe is that American military ammo is a lot better quality then most people give it credit for. After all it is made by American, for Americans on American equipment owned and operated by the American government. I know they also buy from commercial manufacturers, but not foreign ones.
Your POF is not inferior to your M-16 on the contrary it is far superior. You have to remember that most of the time the military buys from the lowest bidder that meets the specs. My son in law, who is leaving for a second tour from Fort Hood to go to Iraq on February 11, said that he’d love to have the POF simply because when they took cover behind the mud walls and buildings in Iraq they discovered that his M-4 rounds would not penetrate the walls, but the AK-47 would. How would you like to be in that situation? Do you still think your POF is inferior?
Kindest regards,
Joe Regina
Joe,
I actually did get into reloading (for the cost!), but right now I only do it for .45 ACP, and haven’t made any actual rifle rounds yet. I shoot handguns a lot more than rifles, so I just haven’t gotten around to buying a set of .308 dies.
You referenced permanent “damage” being done to the rifle by the cheaper ammo several times in your post, but could you be more specific? What kind of damage are your referring to? The barrel? If a handful of milsurp rounds can ruin the rifle, then do you really think it’s worth two and a half grand? I’ll be upfront with you and say that I’m fairly new to rifle ownership, and my previous familiarity was primarily through my service rifle. I’m a good shot, but I make no claims to know all of the mechanics of the rifle outside the basics. That being said, though, I have a hard time understanding how a rifle that’s touted as having “ultimate reliability” could be permanently ruined by doing exactly what it was made to do. My M-16 never had accuracy issues and the ammo I used they was by far crappier.
I understand that, ideally, you should use the nicest ammo possible for any firearm you shoot, but it was also my understanding that this particular rifle was made to eat up anything, under any circumstances (or at least that’s how it’s advertised). If it’s not a rifle that can be used with cheap ammo… then that’s not really reliable in my book. Maybe you’re right, maybe I should get an AK, but this rifle was presented as the best of both worlds–a reliable piston system with the accuracy of an AR platform–and that’s why I got it.
I like to shoot a lot, but, quite frankly, I can’t afford to spend $1.25 a shot, especially when I can get Wolf ammo for about $0.40 a shot. *sigh* Even if I start reloading my own rounds I can’t really beat that price. Although I admit it is much more fun to make and use your own rounds.
Again, I’m not arguing the point that you should use better ammo, but you make it sound like I’m going to destroy my weapon by using decent milsurp ammo, and I just don’t understand how a P-308 could be inferior to my beat-to-hell M-16 in that manner.
I have a P308 16.5. I shoot sub MOA at a 100 yards, and have knocked steel targets down at 400 to 700 pretty easy (target size is around 2 feet by 2 feet) I am very impressed with the POFs. I did have issues with mine before and had to send it back in, but POF fixed it and sent it back within 2 days express shipping on them, and also sent me 60 Hornady rounds to test her out. She shoots flawlessly now and I couldn’t think of a better AR platform. I am in the Army, I have used many different small arms in my time, but fell in love with the 7.62×51 when I got to use the M24, and M21 in a school I went to. The 7.62×51 is no means the best round for any one job, but is a great round for most. POF also has said they are working on a 300win, that is a great long range round and is a much flatter path than the 7.62×51. For the P308, I’d say from CQB to 700m you should be ok, maybe 800m with the 20 inch barrel, but don’t expect too much more from it. Thanks for your time.
Ryan,
I couldn’t help but cringe while reading your post. Feeding cheap military surplus ammo to your POF is like putting cheap gas from a Stop and Go in a Ferrari. The car will run with a lot pings and sputters, but even more importantly if you continue to do that in the longer run you are going to have big problems from the cumulative effect of those cheap rounds. Changing mags may help but the damage has already been done.
I speak from personal experience. Been there and done that. Fortunately I learned that lesson early on a 308 DPMS using Monarch and Wolf ammo. I sold that rifle and I haven’t repeated the mistake on any of my other rifles including the POF.
Too many people pay too much attention to the rifle because its what they see. What they don’t see it’s the bullet. It’s bullet and the casing are critical in the performance of the rifle, just as the gas is to a car, or food to the human body. Ask any doctor (I’m married to one) and they will tell you a bad diet will lead to severe long term health problems and a shorter life span. And really bad food will make you sick very quickly.
In my opinion it is ultimately all about the bullet and it’s placement. If that doesn’t matter you probably should have bought an AK, they’ll fire all kinds of junk and seldom jam, but most people that have them are hard pressed to hit a regular 18″ target past 50 yards. Your POF used to be able to drill shot groups of less than an inch at 100 yards. Now you may not be able to do that because of damage that has already been done. So switching to good American made ammo will help, but won’t undo the damage that is already there.
If you like to shoot a lot, like I do, get into ammo reloading. It will lower your cost, but more importantly you’ll get custom made rounds that perform so much better that there is no comparison. Learn more about the bullet that’s were the real difference happens. Buy a book or cruise the forums on reloading, what you will learn will change to way you think about shooting.
Merry Christmas to all,
Joe
JB,
I saw that you asked about the Magpul mags, but I don’t think anyone answered your question. After I got my POF (16″) I had all sorts of problems with ammo not feeding correctly, getting caught on the “lip” as others have said, or, in some cases, double feeding. I ditched the steel mag and used the Magpul Pmags instead and those problems mostly went away. I say mostly because I’m still not 100% satisfied that it was the magazine and/or cheap ammo that I was using. I’ll need to put quite a few more rounds through it before I’m happy. There’s just certain ammo types that I’ve used that it does NOT like, which really surprises me. Most of my problems have been with soft-tipped .308′s and milsurp 7.62′s. I believe I’m looking at two different problems, though. The soft-tips didn’t like the steel mags, and work much better with the Pmag, but the 7.62′s (some Pakistani, some Venezuelan) don’t seem to kick enough to get the rifle to cycle properly. There were many times that I fired and the next round simply failed to chamber. Other times, the second round chambers, but upon pulling the trigger again nothing happens… after waiting an obligatory few seconds, I kick out the round and find no ding in the primer–the firing pin wasn’t even hitting the rounds after that first shot. So I guess subsequent shots are seating correctly. This happened to me repeatedly one trip to the range with the aforementioned milsurp ammo. On the other hand, though, it tore through another milsurp (Indian, I think) without any problems. It’s a little frustrating, honestly, because I felt that this rifle should be able to eat up just about any 308/762 ammo. On the plus side, it’s pretty damn accurate, even with the crap ammo.
So, in short, the Magpul Pmags did improve the feeding issues for me overall (and they’re only like $18 at MidwayUSA!), but my particular POF seems to have refined tastes when it comes to ammo.
Max,
If I were you, I’d ask the guys at snipershide.com the same question. Many people SWEAR by their POF rifles over any other.
@wade
i am 18. and i am looking to buy a rifle i have set my mind on a 7.62x51mm/308. win. i have been looking at the fn scar 17, pof 308 16″ barrel, and a m14/socom. i was ready to buy the pof 308 however have heard many stories like yours and i was wondering if you would recommend the pof over any of the others.and if you know pof has made the changes to their rifles yet. i hope to recieve a reply from you or someone else
Wade, you are absolutely correct, in my opinion. Any Soldier will adopt his own gear preferences as well as fighting style as he becomes familiar with the actual job of soldiering, (i.e. i try to keep my magazines for my rifle on the left side of my abdomen, as i reload with my left hand.) The concept of using a .308 for urban use is also a double edged sword, take for example, that some of the pros include superior penetration of enemy cover, while that very same penetration may be a danger to friendly troops in the same area. Hence the reason that most Infantry platoons will prefer to clear or fight through an urban area in a linear fashion, is to avoid said weapons effects.
I would have to say that the preference between a 5.56 or a 7.62 CQB platform was really based on the available platforms they used to be offered in. I have yet to meet somebody who would actually prefer to clear a house with an M-14 versus an M4, but now that .308 is offered in a compact platform like the P-308, I’m all for it as a CQB rifle. You are actually taught to perform “controlled pairs” and “failure drills” (2 in chest, 2 in chest and 1 in face” on reflex, and with such a large round, it actually nearly completely eliminates a need to further follow up with more shots, so you can move on to the next threat. i HAVE heard stories of insurgents exfiling from an ambush to safety with as many as FOUR 5.56 wounds, meanwhile i have NOT heard about anyone walking away from multiple .308 GSW’s. Case in point, the military’s M240B machine gun fires a .308, and thats a full metal jacket to boot.
Oh, and if you have coyote in your area, you probably won’t even have to ask me to come shoot HAHA.
Hey guys, I have some good news from a POF owner on a website I frequent.
This is his setup:
20″ POF P308 w/ Nightforce 5.5-22×56 HS ZS, PRS, etc.
My question to him was:
How do you like the NightForce on the POF? That’s what I’m wanting to mount on my own. What’s the best groups you’ve got, and at what distances?
His reply was:
The Nightforce is fantastic, especially with the high speed turrets. I’m holding sub moa out to 800 yard or so and usually shooting .5 to .75″ groups at 100 yards.
_______________________________
I’ve sent him a message, inquiring about what ammo he’s using and I’ll let you guys know as soon as I hear back from him.
I was excited to get his first response because it just goes to show that the POF P-308 is definitely worth every penny!
Marshall, sorry to take so long to get back to you. I meant to post right away but got distracted and then almost forgot altogether. I greatly respect your combat experience and the fact that I have none. So, if I seem incredulous it’s not that I doubt the quality of your testimony. That said, I’m surprised that you favor 7.62 for CQB. The 7.62 vs 5.56 controversy has been kicked around the internet ad nausium, usually by people who have no business offering an opinion. I’ve heard many an armchair commando opine that bigger is better, and I’ve heard credible rumors that some soldiers in theater are asking to be up-gunned, but your the first actual troop I’ve spoken to with recent experience who has expressed a preference for a 7.62 battle rifle for urban work. I’ve always assumed that there really were good reasons for going to the 5.56, at least for engagements inside 150 meters (which seems to be the majority of engagements, period). Supposedly they had analyzed lots of fighting from WWII, Korea, and early Viet Nam and came to the conclusion that the vast majority of rounds ended up being fired for little more than suppressive effect. My step-father, who fought in the Battle of the Bulge and all across France and Germany told me that he threw down his Garand and picked up a fast cycling 9 mm German sub-gun as soon as he could. I’ve heard others with real combat experience say that the preferred the lightest, high volume, “bullet hose” they could find. They all said it was about suppressive fire, keeping the other guy’s heads down. But, men have different fighting styles, and weapons and tactics change over time. Based on the many conversations you’ve probably had with experienced troops, could you estimate what percentage of the guys who really know their way around a firefight might actually choose a 7.62 over a 5.56 for their personal rifles? I’m not talking M14 vs M4 but if they could chose any rifle at all.
By the way, I live in Safford, AZ. Maybe you’d like to come out and try my back yard range. BLM as far as the eye can see.
Cool beans. You can find me and snapshots of my own POF P-308 under n3td3v[at]hotmail[dot]com
If Any of you’d like, i reside in the avondale area of AZ, ive posted on my facebook a couple of pics and a video of my p-308. just look up Engel_Von_Todd [@] yahoo on the email section.
Wade, unfortunately, ive been in close combat as well as medium and extremely long range (to the point where i couldnt even fight back). my military experience as an infantryman includes grenadier, automatic rifleman, machinegunner, team leader, and squad leader. i just left the army after completing a six year contract in april as a sergeant. my preference of optic is a AA powered eotech, and as such, with a close combat scenario, all that is required, realistically is to ensure that your target is within the window of the optic to make a snapshot. (in the case of those without a reflex sight, as long as your front sight post is on target, youlle hit the target within twentyfive meters, within reason of course, IE put the weapon in your shoulder properly.) and yes, a 5.56 is more controllable than the 7.62, but ultimately you can have peace of mind that your first round with the 7.62 will put whatever it is youre shooting at down, for the most part without need for a follow up shot, due to the devastating terminal ballistics of the round. i opted for the 14.5 inch barrel on mine, as im a little more fluent in close range work, but if i have to, i can reach out and touch something. its all personal preference, i would have to say. either way, i was searching for accuracy and reliability, coupled with massive stopping power in a small package, and the p-308 definitely delivers. I also agree with joe, that the military has seriously misprioritized their military budgeting. its a question i ask myself when making a purchase on a firearm, or buying new equipment, “how much is my life worth to me?”
Been a while since I’ve posted, but I want to comment on a couple of recent posts. First to Gunnut. POF did have a some production issues that adversely impacted a certain number of rifles. Mine was one of them and a friend of mine also got a couple of the problem rifles. POF fixed all of our weapons and they now run like Swiss clocks. It is possible they had multiple screw-ups on your gun, but it sure doesn’t square with our experience. They rebuilt and upgraded ours while we watched (We personally visited the factory because we live in Arizona.), and they’ve been absolutely flawless ever since. We’ve found their customer service to be just impeccable, so send it back. They’ll make it right.
If Marshall is reading, I’m very curious about your experience. You would prefer to carry a P308 in combat rather than a 5.56 based weapon? I own many AR’s chambered in 5.56, one in 6.8 SPC, and also have my P308 in 7.62. While I’ve never been in combat, I always thought that I’d surely reach for either a 5.56 or my 6.8 if I had to trade shots with someone at close to medium range. I would think that the greater weight, and even more so, the slower shot recovery time of the 7.62 would make it less than ideal for close to medium range work in most instances. Personally, I can place about twice as many shots accurately per unit time with a 5.56 than I can with a 7.62. Perhaps most of your combat experience, because it was in Afghanistan, was learned in the medium to long range environment. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. Are you speaking of longer ranges like 200 meters and beyond when you say you’d prefer to carry the P308? If you had the choice, would you choose a POF in 5.56 over the P308 if you were going on a patrol in an urban area, or would you just prefer the .308 weapon for ALL environments? I’d be very grateful if you could explain your preferences and your reasons if you would share with us the lessons you brought back from your very valuable experience. By the way, thanks for serving and risking your neck for all of the rest of us! We’re glad that you evidently made it back in one piece.
I’m with Marshall, I have had my POF P308-20-MRR-308 for about 4 months. I’ve put about a thousand rounds of Fereral Matchking 168BTHP through it and I’ve not had a single failure. After each day I just use breake cleaner to flush out the dirt and then clean the parts with a rag. I spray some Rem Oil on a cloth and wipe the parts down so that there is very little lubrication. I do the same with the barrel. The rifle is dead accurate at 300 yards.
My 55 year old eyes need all the magnification they can get. On the 18th I should be receiving my new Swarovski 5-30X50 scope. With that magnification I think I will have a better chance of finding out what the limit of this rifle is. It can outshoot my current Leupold 4.5-14×50. Two and three hundred yards shots are too easy.
My son-in-law is at Fort Hood (Air Assault) now and may get re-deployed next year. If he has to go to ‘stan I would like to loan him this gun, if they allow it (I doubt it). I think this is the weapon that the Army should be using over there. It would certainly give those ragheads with AK’s something to think about. The 5.56 round was intended for jungle fighting where visibility is limited. In the mountains long range and stopping power is what our boys need. They need 308 with good scopes, not stealth fighters at $100 million a pop.
Marshall,
Thanks for the input. It’s always nice to hear of someone else having a great experience with their POF.
Just bought my p-308 recon a week ago, and ive taken it out every single day this last week, at least 500 rounds put through it. i spent two and a half years in afghanistan using an M4 in combat over 400 times, and i honestly have to say that id pay money to have this rifle in combat, it shuts any other AR rifle on the market down. i havent had one jam, and the mother is so accurate, that it might as well have homing bullets. three thousand dollars well spent. Serial number 853. one of the first.
GunNut,
I had the same issues with my rifle over the Labor Day weekend and to say that I was frustrated would be an understatement. However, I found the culprit and the issue was resolved. I had installed the Magpul PRS stock and when doing so, I wasn’t aware that I would also have to swap my carbine buffer/spring to a rifle/standard length buffer/spring.
While at the range, this is what was happening:
The bolt wouldn’t extract the rounds properly and another round would be trying to load with the chambered round only half ejected.
The bolt wouldn’t push the rounds up into the chamber properly, as the neck of the round would get caught on the inner grooves of the chamber shoulder. I also noticed where the casings had marks where the extractor hadn’t gripped the bottom of the round good enough and if left marks where the extractor had slipped off, leaving the round in the chamber or half ejected.
Man, I was wracking my brain because I couldn’t figure out whether it was the ammo, or if my rifle had a serious malfunction, or what else might be the problem. Upon arriving home, I started Googling and found that the carbine length spring and buffer don’t have enough “oompf” behind them cycle properly when you’ve installed a Magpul stock and standard length buffer tube. After I had re-installed the Veltor stock that came with the rifle, my problems disappeared, and I’m waiting on the parts needed my rifle to function properly with the Magpul PRS.
EVERYTHING you’re describing sounds EXACTLY as what I was experiencing. Even if you’re using the Veltor stock, I would get on DPMS or Midway USA and purchase a new carbine length buffer spring and carbine buffer to see if your problems go away.
I’d be willing to bet that installing a new buffer/spring will solve your problem.
I too have a POF in 308. Had it sent back numerous times to fix numerous problems and it still will not load, extract, or eject with consistency.
Each time I get it back they tell me they discovered another problem that they fix. They told me the last time that after test firing hundreds of rounds nothing went wrong. After I got it back and shoot it the same problems occurred and continue to occur.
The gas system get a great deal of carbon in the tube that the op rod runs through and the rod and piston get difficult to move.
Do not plan on shooting this rifle more then 50 rounds before the gas system is so dirty that it impairs the extraction, ejection, and chambering of your ammo.
If I had read of all the problems this rifle has been causing people before I bought it. I would of never purchased it. Save your money and buy something else.
The rifle is very accurate when it works, but most of the time the rounds either do not feed or stovepipe. I noticed the rim of my cases have a cut on them from the extractor.
I have shot many different types of ammo from surplus to handloads. Each time a round will not chamber I save it and shoot it through my M1A without any problems.
I would never trust my life to this rifle. It is a jam o matic.
About 30% of the time when a round is chambered it will not fire, because the bolt will not close all the way. I have to tie a piece of cord around the charging handle to pull it back to remove the round.
It will go back this winter to POF and if they cannot fix it then I will sell it and never buy another rifle made by them.
For those of you that have had no problems I am green with envy.
I have a P308-20 and I had initial accuracy problems that were fixed by POF initially. Then I had issues with Burris scope mounts, that has been cleared with the LaRue LT-104 mount. I am now getting .5″ groups at 100yds. I am using American Eagle 168gr Match ammo.
Dennis
Has anyone so this gun out to 300+yard yet…woul dlove to hear how good it shoots
Ha, I have a POF 308 and have been very satisfied with the accuracy. It has a 16 inch barrel and will shoot under an inch at 100 yards. I have shot about 500 rounds through it. I have also shot out to 800 yards at steel targets that are man sized, using a cheep mill dot scope with great success. But I have had chronic mag trouble. Has any one else had this problem? Has anyone tried a new Magpul mag? If so how it go?
ShotgunKirk,
Thanks, friend. BTW, I bought POF’s 20 inch SPR configuration. That’s why I’m really interested in long range performance. I was hoping to set mine up like the military’s new semi-auto sniper weapon from Knights Armament. I like the idea of a very accurate .308 that can do precision work out to 800 yards and still function as a battle rifle for high volume encounters up close and personal. When finances are better I’d like to get little red dot sight like the new one from Insight and mount it off to the side of the long range scope so I can do super quick and effective, both-eyes-open shooting up close. With a versatile set-up like that one would be equiped to do everything from CQB to mid-range sniping or take just about any kind of game in North America.
Well said Wade! i agree with just about everything you said. Let us know how it shoots at those long ranges will ya? i have heard some pretty amazing things about them though.
ShotgunKirk,
I certainly stand by my review. But, some us have been discussing whether POF’s .308 weapons are actually SNIPER GRADE. We’re talking about LONG range performance. I’m holding my final opinion on POF’s long range capabilities until I and/or others PROVE what they can do at the longer ranges that the .308 is capable of reaching. Most experts agree that the effective range of the .308 is somewhere around 800 yards. Now, I can’t think of another 7.62 weapon that I’d rather have in my hand for a short range fight. The POF is utterly reliable and superbly accurate inside of 200 yards. Mine will do ½ inch groups at 100 yards. For a gas-powered semi-auto this is just phenomenal. But, as I said before, while there are a number of fine semi’s capable of good accuracy at shorter ranges, there are VERY few that can maintain top grade accuracy at longer ranges. Here’s a good example: I read an excellent test on AR15.com where they tested about a dozen of the best, high-end (mostly) 6.8 SPC uppers available at the time. Most of them shot MOA and some did sub-MOA out to 200 yards or so. Remember that MOA (minute of angle) is about 1 inch at 100 yards, 2 inches at 200 yards, and so on. When they shot these same uppers at 300 and 600 yards, only two or three of them could to better than 3 MOA. In other words, out of all these fine rifles that could easily punch 1 inch groups at 100 yards, only two or three could do better than 18 inch groups at 600 yards. Most couldn’t even hit the target consistently. Bottom line: It takes a WHOLE LOT more precision and care to achieve good accuracy at 500-800 yards than it does at 100 yards. If POF’s .308s can consistently shoot 2 MOA or better at, say, 700 yards (That would be 14 inches or better.) then, and only then, can we say that they are sniper grade weapons. I bought one, so I’m hoping they can do it! But performance that exceptional must be proven, not assumed.
you mind telling us what you doubt about it being the excaliber of the .308? ’cause you give it a damn good review. also what barrel length you got?
Good to hear from you Badlandshooter. Your prarie dog anecdote is encouraging. Nice to hear from someone who’s shot their POF at serious distances. What I’d really love to know is if you’ve shot long ranges under controlled conditions and what kind of results you’ve had. Like you, I suspect these rifles might be sniper grade, but I’ve yet to hear of anyone proving it. I’m hoping for someone who can tell us about their five round groups on paper at 500 to 800 yards. A lot of shooters think that if a rifle will consistently punch one inch groups at 100 yards, it will most likely do something like five inch groups at 500 yards. But that is not the case. Very few rifles that are MOA accurate at 100 will be anywhere close to MOA at significantly longer ranges. Accuracy on most of them degrades rapidly out past 300 yards if not before. Weapons that will consistently shoot 2 MOA or better at 800 yards (That would be groups of 16 inch or less at that range.) are very exceptional. I’m just aching to know if our POF’s are in that class. If you get a chance to punch some paper way out there please do let us know your results, good or bad. Good shooting!
I have been shooting a POF .308 for about six months and have shot only 168 grain tap ammo through it. I have a Nightforce 5.5-22-56. I have shot many 5 shot groups that I can cover with a dime at 100 yards and have shot the rifle over 800 yards at praerie dogs with results that impressed all that observed so I would tell anyone that shoots a .308 to give this rifle a chance! I have never had 1 round jam or had fouling become a problem even when shooting 100 plus rounds at the dog town. I may have found the excalibur of the .308 rifles but I doubt it I just love it.
yeah it does.check out their website http://www.pof-usa.com/main.htm
it’s got all that info on it. let us know how it works out if you buy one.