M4 beaten by piston carbines
The Army dust test results are out. As you can see above the M4 has fared very badly.
Weapons officials at the Army Test and Evaluation Command at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., exposed Colt Defense LLC’s M4, along with the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and the H&K 416 to sandstorm conditions from late September to late November, firing 6,000 rounds through each test weapon.
When the test was completed, ATEC officials found that the M4 performed “significantly worse” than the other three weapons, sources told Army Times.
Officials tested 10 each of the four carbine models, firing a total of 60,000 rounds per model. Here’s how they ranked, according to the total number of times each model stopped firing:
* XM8: 127 stoppages.
* MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.
* 416: 233 stoppages.
* M4: 882 stoppages.The results of the test were “a wake-up call,” but Army officials continue to stand by the current carbine, said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, commander of Program Executive Office Soldier, the command that is responsible for equipping soldiers.
You can bet H&K, FN and Magpul are happy about these results!
Hat Tip: Murdoc Online
[...] I didn’t think that they were actually planning on replacing the M4 when they announced the testing. Even without magazine stoppages the M4 performed very badly. [...]
And yet we’re still stuck with this pos.
Just an HK416 upper would do immeasurably better.
This, ladies and gents, is politics and money at work.
Don’t get me wrong, the M4/16 is seriously flawed, mine jammed after 4 whopping rounds in an engagement in Baghdad because I believed the BS about keeping it highly lubed, which, in turn makes it a Sand magnet. That was example 1 of money politics, with some Lieutenant General getting his fingers in the pie for M4 sales.
Call me jaded, but the results from the XM8 are telling me that Gen. Brown has his fingers in the H&K pie and a published article in the Army Times is a good way to push his platform.
To be real about it: FN makes almost every small-arms platform we have under contract, from M4’s, 240B’s, Ma Deuce and M9’s, and the whole spectrum. You can see who’s gonna get the contract from a mile away, assuming we get a new carbine. I won’t complain about a short stroking SCAR either way, especially if the damn detent spring is beefed up and less prone to failure.
I spent 1 year in iraq and was also having a major problem with stopages at the most in opportune times, and i belive that it is the cleaner lube protectant that the military issues that is the heart of the problem. I stoped useing it and instead usesd a graphite lube that i had shipped. after useing the graphite i honestly didnt have a problem with stopages the rest of the time. the m16 is a fine weapon, its down fall is that its parts fit to well, but that is also why it is such an acurate weapon. if you keep the guts dry and complitely oil free, and use graphite lubricant you dont have the stopages.
The M4 is an excellent weapon. so was the M16. that is why we have used it for over 40 years. but all good things come to an end. I am sure that the SCAR is also an excellent weapons platform but there is a problem with both the SCAR and the XM8, Our soldiers will need to be retrained on the new weapons. This is eventually an unavoidable problem but it should not come up in the middle of a war with two countries. I believe that the 416 would be the best short-term replacement for the M4 until we get out of the Middle East. Once we are out and get recruitment back up, then put in a new weapon. Easier to train newer men than the old salts who are so used to the M4. Just a thought
Gen. Mark Brown didn’t have any effects on the results of the test, so I don’t believe that he has his “fingers in the H&K pie”, or else our soldiers would be equipped with the XM8. However, I do believe that the General has his fingers in the Colt pie, and that is why we are still purchasing M4’s at nearly double the price of a 416. I certainly don’t have all of the facts, but Gen. Mark Brown is the same General involved in the Interceptor/Dragon Skin fiasco, on the Interceptor side. All of the evidence that I have seen supports all of the equipment that he discredits. This leads me to believe that Brown is a shady character who puts personal profit above the lives of our warrior class.
Why was the G36 never considered as an off-the shelf solution? The XM8 is very similar but yet looks like a toy and apparently hasn’t performed to spec.
Junkball: Probably because it doesn’t use the STANAG magazines.
G36 mags are bigger, which means that the soldiers have to load even more stuffs on their platecarriers.
Also, magazines are not über cheap, especially not when you need to re-arm a whole army.
I’m just guessing btw.
Many of the ideas and technologies in the xm8 came from the G36, and I don’t understand how it couldn’t have performed to specifications if it performed so much better than the M4 as well as the other contenders. About the magazine thing, G36 and xm8 magazines aren’t any bigger than STANAG magazines, or very expensive. G36 and xm8 magazines are actually lighter and cheaper to produce than STANAGs, because they are made of ABS plastic, as apposed to aluminum alloys.
Well its true about the relabilty but they dont mention the accuracy on this thing ,ya sure XM8 is queit strong but how about the recoil.Ak 47 will probably ace this test but really not bad on accuracy and with high fire power.I say AK 47 should do the trick and queit cheap just for 250$.
I wonder how the Steyr AUG would have done…
Don’t we still have Garands and M14s in cosmoline?
Why not use those? They(at their time) were potent man killers..and still are to this day.
I don’t think Garands have as many problems as the M4 does..and if you run dry of ammo..you have a pretty hefty club.
great site…
the M4/16 family is one of the most, if not the most, succesful wepon the U.S has ever used. it has its flaws but it is an amazing wepon. but i agree it is alittle out-dated. it does need replaced….the SCAR would probably be the best bet. because the XM8 is just to large of a platforn. its just to bulky. but the 416 is basicly a m16 without the fear of it jamming as much. and from what i have see it it allmost impossible to over heat the gun. you can remove the bolt after fireing 4, 30 round mags and its cool to the touch.. the military should look into either the FNH SCAR or the H&K416
The M4/M16 doesn’t need any replacement, this is the best weapon in the world buttttt his reliability.
when it will be fixed, it would be the winner…no replacement needed!
the m16 help us in a lot of wars and that is why we still are using it, but honestly it is getting old and we need a replacement, i would go with the scar or the xm8, i believe that the scar is being used but not as much as the m4/16, my best bet would be the xm8 because not only did it had the least amount of stoppages, but it is also pretty cheap since every part of the gun that could be made with plastic is, and also it wouldn’t be as difficult to train the soldiers with since thegun already comes with a red dot site only problem is the recoilf the gun. this is not about what the us army wants but what they need!
@Millz, The xm8 is not a bulky platform. It is, in fact, a very lightwieght weapon, weighing just over 6 lbs, and through a simple barrel and stock swap, can turn into a sub-compact, a sniper rifle, and an SAW. The SCAR is actualy BIGGER! I think we should use the XM8. Lightweight, reliable, cheaper because it is 4 guns in one, and uses the same ammunition as the M4. It is cheaper because instead of buing 5 different guns for 5 different jobs, why not use 1 gun for 5 different jobs? A squad would all have an XM8, yet we’ll still have a sniper, a guy with cover-fire capabilties, a guy with a small gun for infiltration, and the rest with standard size weapons.
JJ, in practice is makes no difference if a sniper and machine gunner use different guns.